The Quandary

[Ancient Soul]

I see that you are still here running around in circles.

You make me suspect that you were one of those neurotic dogs that always chases their tails in your past lifetime.

So by your above statement that means you got NOTHING. And your whole argument for the last several days is based upon a platform of quicksand and for NOTHING. You could just have admitted it in the first place.

1. You have no proof that your Baha'u'llah had any spiritual experiences or is a "messenger" of any "god". So you got nothing.

2. I never stated I was any "messenger. You just made that up.

3. I never told anyone they had to believe my spiritual experiences. (And since you seem to have problems grasping things, my ONE sarcastic reply to Tony does not count. As it was just to prove a point that putting something in writing makes it just as true as this Baha'u'lla claim that it came from "god" because it "says so" in writing.)

4. Because of what your Baha'u'lla beliefs tells you to believe, you think that you can tell God who he can and cannot communicate with, show spiritual things, etc. You cannot. You are impotent no matter how much you use CAPS, or BOLD, or red, or shake your fist at the sky and yell at the top of your lungs, God has been with me ever since I was a child and there is NOTHING you can do about it.



Oops! You just boxed yourself in on that one. LOL

You cannot wiggle your way out of that. Now while the Christians would have said "God told me it's true.". YOU cannot do that because you are told to blindly believe that your "god" doesn't communicate to anyone. So HOW do you "just know it's "true""?



There you go with your RED HERRINGS again. You are once again avoiding that which you are afraid to face. Here it is again:

"Funny how ALL of these so called messengers always speak/write using bombastic gobbledygook meant to bedazzle people but completely lack any true spiritual substance.

True spiritual matters are about:

God, his true spiritual nature, laws, judgment process, and plan for all souls.

One's soul, what is it really?

The spiritual realm/universe.

The physical realm/universe.

Why are the spiritual realm and physical realm separate?

What will the "afterlife" be like?

There's way more, but all amounting to the great question of the WHY of it all, and your place in all of it, for what purpose?

Now cry all you want, but you will find more straight answers on some of those topics in my posts than you will NEVER get from studying your "messenger's" gobbledygook for a lifetime."

*********************************
So here's your chance. Go and get me any passages from your Baha'u'lla "messenger" that you think answers/describes those matters and we'll see if it's really any clear and concise answers/descriptions, or just bombastic gobbledygook meant to bedazzle people.

I never claimed I had proof. I told you that such a claim cannot be proven.
There is no proof but there us plenty of evidence.

Likewise, I never told anyone they had to believe Baha'u'llah's spiritual experiences.

Sure you did, you even presented excerpts from your dogma that in your mind was "proof" that his writings came from "god" that "said so". I remember laughing at that.

So don't start denying things you've claimed, least you lose even more credibility.

In do not tell God what He can and cannot do, nobody does.
I just report what God does and does not do, according to my beliefs.

Ha, everyone following these forums has seen you proclaiming how God is supposed to change everything he does because YOU say so, because your religion says so. And since your religion has no proof to be from God, then you are making false accusations to people when you tell them what "god" does or does not do.

The nature of belief is that people can believe anything they want to believe.
Believe whatever you want to believe but don't expect me to believe it. I don't believe any of it...
Whatcha gonna do about that?

Already covered, so there you go chasing your tail again.

First you have to find where I ever made such a claim. You won't find any.

"Funny how ALL of these so called messengers always speak/write using bombastic gobbledygook meant to bedazzle people but completely lack any true spiritual substance.

True spiritual matters are about:

God, his true spiritual nature, laws, judgment process, and plan for all souls.

One's soul, what is it really?

The spiritual realm/universe.

The physical realm/universe.

Why are the spiritual realm and physical realm separate?

What will the "afterlife" be like?

There's way more, but all amounting to the great question of the WHY of it all, and your place in all of it, for what purpose?

Now cry all you want, but you will find more straight answers on some of those topics in my posts than you will NEVER get from studying your "messenger's" gobbledygook for a lifetime."

*********************************
So here's your chance. Go and get me any passages from your Baha'u'lla "messenger" that you think answers/describes those matters and we'll see if it's really any clear and concise answers/descriptions, or just bombastic gobbledygook meant to bedazzle people.

What I will find is what you BELIEVE that God revealed to you about spiritual matters, but there is NO REASON for me to believe that God revealed anything to you, because.....
YOU HAVE NO PROOF.

Geez...

Enough with the RED HERRINGS of avoidance already!

That has nothing to do with my challenge. What are you so afraid of?

Baha'u'llah answered all those questions:
(a) If God revealed the answers to Him, and
(b) If Baha'u'llah thought humanity was ready to hear the answers.

I'll answer the questions as soon as I have time.

Now I'll bet that you never do that.

And I like the waffling comment you made as a pre-excuses of:

"If God revealed the answers to Him"
"If Baha'u'llah thought humanity was ready to hear the answers.

Geez... Now THAT is a lame start for a "messenger" from "god".

 

[Ancient Soul]

What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
You cannot use your stories to TRY to prove your stories originated from God.

The difference is that I am not offering any stories as proof of stories, as you are.

You are really desperately trying the deception card I see.

Or maybe all your chasing your tail has you confused. As it's YOU who is desperately trying to tell me what is "true" and what isn't, based upon your Baha'u'lla "messenger" story.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ha, everyone following these forums has seen you proclaiming how God is supposed to change everything he does because YOU say so,

Nobody can change what God does....

You do not know jack squat about what God does.
You just think you do.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now I'll bet that you never do that.

I was planning to but now I won't.
I will no longer post to you since you misrepresent me and and disrespect me.

Have a good life with your BELIEFS about God.

 

[oldbadger]

It is just that and it has always been the Quandary given of God.

Either a Messenger is from God, as claimed, with the proofs and Words they offer, or they are not.

So given this is a choice, I see this is the age where humanity will achieve the unity of the Human race under One God, or it is not.

You are invited to discuss, or debate, it is your choice in doing so you accept that......

...... I will offer what I have found, if you ask or make a comment that an answer has been given to.

View attachment 36920

I see the vision of such a possibility was gifted in the 1800's, from God.

What says you?

Regards Tony

I'm a Deist, so I'll make it easy for you if you should meet any more Deists in future.

Since Deists believe in an unaware and/or disinterested God, so vast that this planet is too tiny for notice, you don't need to ask questions like this of us.......... we all feel sure that God doesn't send special representatives to us.

But in the case of your religion and prophet, the world will be able to judge all by its fruits, I guess.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

nay...it's never been about this world

the kingdom is not of this world

Agreed, but we also live in it and are asked to know and love God and as such have the chance to be born again while we do.

Mark 12:17 "Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him".

It's all Part of the Quandary.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm a Deist, so I'll make it easy for you if you should meet any more Deists in future.

Since Deists believe in an unaware and/or disinterested God, so vast that this planet is too tiny for notice, you don't need to ask questions like this of us.......... we all feel sure that God doesn't send special representatives to us.

But in the case of your religion and prophet, the world will be able to judge all by its fruits, I guess.

I acknowledge your free will to discount an all Loving God. You will face no opposition from any Baha'i for you to pursue that path.

It's all part of the quandary and the quandary remains. If Baha'u'llah is as claimed, then different frames of reference are required. If not, you will depart this world happy in your own knowledge.

Regards Tony

 

[Thief]

Agreed, but we also live in it and are asked to know and love God and as such have the chance to be born again while we do.

Mark 12:17 "Then Jesus said to them, "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." And they were amazed at him".

It's all Part of the Quandary.

Regards Tony

I have always liked that quote....but
can you picture yourself making such pronouncement?
as the Jews before you hated the Romans

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I have always liked that quote....but
can you picture yourself making such pronouncement?
as the Jews before you hated the Romans

Each age has had their Romans, in this day it is Global.

Basically a roman to me is one that turns away from God and pursues a materialistic life based in self fulfilling actions, oblivious that the world is full of people that will need help in one way or another and are not there to be used as slaves.

So in this age we all have a little, or a lot of Roman in us, if we buy from materialistic economic sources that treat profits as their God and treat workers as chattel, then we are supporting that culture. None of us can put out hand up and say innocent! (Well there may be a few and if it is they that reads this, good on them)

So in this age Baha'u'llah has shown how we are to hate no person and to love all as brothers and sisters. This is the only way to change the mind of man, we must wee that we are one human race. The path ahead is rocky and rough, but I see we will make it, I believe in the promises and bow to what we will face, to find those promises fulfilled.

So it is to me just as applicable in this age to "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." God wants our hearts and leaves us to balance that Love, with the life we have been given in this world.

Regards Tony

 

[Ancient Soul]

Nobody can change what God does....

You do not know jack squat about what God does.
You just think you do.

Ha, coming from the one who blindly follows one of the many man made religions that has no true spiritual answers, then goes around telling everyone that ONLY you have ALL the answers because your book SAYS SO, that makes your comment one of those pot/kettle things.

 

[Ancient Soul]

I was planning to but now I won't.
I will no longer post to you since you misrepresent me and and disrespect me.

Have a good life with your BELIEFS about God.

Nice dodge!

This is just one of the tactics Christians pull all the time. When you cannot provide any answers/proof to my challenge, you run away while making an arrogant condemnation to try saving face.

Now everyone reading these posts, THIS is the simple challenge that is being AVOIDED:

"Funny how ALL of these so called messengers always speak/write using bombastic gobbledygook meant to bedazzle people but completely lack any true spiritual substance.

True spiritual matters are about:

God, his true spiritual nature, laws, judgment process, and plan for all souls.

One's soul, what is it really?

The spiritual realm/universe.

The physical realm/universe.

Why are the spiritual realm and physical realm separate?

What will the "afterlife" be like?

There's way more, but all amounting to the great question of the WHY of it all, and your place in all of it, for what purpose?

Now cry all you want, but you will find more straight answers on some of those topics in my posts than you will NEVER get from studying your "messenger's" gobbledygook for a lifetime."

*********************************
So here's your chance. Go and get me any passages from your Baha'u'lla "messenger" that you think answers/describes those matters and we'll see if it's really any clear and concise answers/descriptions, or just bombastic gobbledygook meant to bedazzle people.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ha, coming from the one who blindly follows one of the many man made religions that has no true spiritual answers, then goes around telling everyone that ONLY you have ALL the answers because your book SAYS SO, that makes your comment one of those pot/kettle things.

No, I am not the one who is claiming to have all the answers; you claimed that you have all the true spiritual answers that religions lack, so you are the pot calling the kettle black.

Show me where I told everyone that ONLY I have ALL the answers because my book SAYS SO or retract your misrepresentation of me.

 

[Ancient Soul]

No, I am not the one who is claiming to have all the answers; you claimed that you have all the true spiritual answers that religions lack, so you are the pot calling the kettle black.

Show me where I told everyone that ONLY I have ALL the answers because my book SAYS SO or retract your misrepresentation of me.

Sure you are the one claiming to have ALL the answers because of your beliefs that SAYS SO. That's why you are so obsessed with telling me what is or isn't "true" in my spiritual like. Because you think YOU know it ALL and just cannot stand anyone proving you wrong.

I even saw that you are now trying to insert yourself into other conversations I'm having with others, and bashing me for even mentioning spiritual experiences. Geez...

Now, I even TRIED giving you a chance to prove me wrong, but you ran away from the challenge of:


"Funny how ALL of these so called messengers always speak/write using bombastic gobbledygook meant to bedazzle people but completely lack any true spiritual substance.

True spiritual matters are about:

God, his true spiritual nature, laws, judgment process, and plan for all souls.

One's soul, what is it really?

The spiritual realm/universe.

The physical realm/universe.

Why are the spiritual realm and physical realm separate?

What will the "afterlife" be like?

There's way more, but all amounting to the great question of the WHY of it all, and your place in all of it, for what purpose?

Now cry all you want, but you will find more straight answers on some of those topics in my posts than you will NEVER get from studying your "messenger's" gobbledygook for a lifetime."

So here's your chance. Go and get me any passages from your Baha'u'lla "messenger" that you think answers/describes those matters and we'll see if it's really any clear and concise answers/descriptions, or just bombastic gobbledygook meant to bedazzle people.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Now cry all you want, but you will find more straight answers on some of those topics in my posts than you will NEVER get from studying your "messenger's" gobbledygook for a lifetime."

Well I can say I know what advice I would choose to read. Any good advice any other person could give, only comes from that source. If I leave any doubt as to that source, it is Baha'u'llah in this age and all the Messengers past.

Regards Tony

 

[Ancient Soul]

Sure you are the one claiming to have ALL the answers because of your beliefs that SAYS SO. That's why you are so obsessed with telling me what is or isn't "true" in my spiritual like. Because you think YOU know it ALL and just cannot stand anyone proving you wrong.

I even saw that you are now trying to insert yourself into other conversations I'm having with others, and bashing me for even mentioning spiritual experiences. Geez...

Now, I even TRIED giving you a chance to prove me wrong, but you ran away from the challenge of:


"Funny how ALL of these so called messengers always speak/write using bombastic gobbledygook meant to bedazzle people but completely lack any true spiritual substance.

True spiritual matters are about:

God, his true spiritual nature, laws, judgment process, and plan for all souls.

One's soul, what is it really?

The spiritual realm/universe.

The physical realm/universe.

Why are the spiritual realm and physical realm separate?

What will the "afterlife" be like?

There's way more, but all amounting to the great question of the WHY of it all, and your place in all of it, for what purpose?

Now cry all you want, but you will find more straight answers on some of those topics in my posts than you will NEVER get from studying your "messenger's" gobbledygook for a lifetime."

So here's your chance. Go and get me any passages from your Baha'u'lla "messenger" that you think answers/describes those matters and we'll see if it's really any clear and concise answers/descriptions, or just bombastic gobbledygook meant to bedazzle people.

Well I can say I know what advice I would choose to read. Any good advice any other person could give, only comes from that source. If I leave any doubt as to that source, it is Baha'u'llah in this age and all the Messengers past.

Regards Tony

And that straw man has nothing to do with the ENTIRE post you replied to.

So then WHY is it you and Trailblazer are so afraid to take me up on my challenge?

You both love to go around telling others how "wrong" they are based only upon your beliefs that have no proof from ever coming from any "god", and only make such claims with NO SUBSTANCE. So now it the time to put up.

I reposted the ENTIRE challenge that you deleted from your reply, so it is there for all to see how you cannot back up your claims of spiritual superiority.

 

[CG Didymus]

One's soul, what is it really?

I hope they start with this one. I wonder, the little boy fishy swim and attached themselves to the little girl egg. One of them fertilizes it. At that moment does God create a soul to go into that body? And, what if a different fishy would have fertilized the egg, would that change the soul? So would the soul be the same no matter if the egg develops into a boy or girl? If the mommy miscarriage's, how does God judge that soul? If the purpose of life, according to Baha'is is to develop spiritual virtues by going through tests, what chance did that soul have to develop anything? I can't wait for their answers. But I get the feeling I'm going to be waiting a long, long time.

 

[Thief]

So it is to me just as applicable in this age to "Give back to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's." God wants our hearts and leaves us to balance that Love, with the life we have been given in this world.

I would be resistant

if I give to Cesare what he CLAIMS to be his....
I will end up in poverty

and this is why the quote would be difficult to say to the faces of Jewish
people as the Carpenter was questioned.....His stance of loyalty

that was the moment
someone tried to point out......in public
which side of the fence the Carpenter favored

 

[Ancient Soul]

I hope they start with this one. I wonder, the little boy fishy swim and attached themselves to the little girl egg. One of them fertilizes it. At that moment does God create a soul to go into that body? And, what if a different fishy would have fertilized the egg, would that change the soul? So would the soul be the same no matter if the egg develops into a boy or girl? If the mommy miscarriage's, how does God judge that soul? If the purpose of life, according to Baha'is is to develop spiritual virtues by going through tests, what chance did that soul have to develop anything? I can't wait for their answers. But I get the feeling I'm going to be waiting a long, long time.

I could answer some of those questions, but will have to hold off until this challenge plays out. I don't want to give out too much least they plagiarize some of it by using my own words to "explain" what this Baha'u'llah MEANT to say. As I've given a similar challenge to many Christians over the years , and they deceitfully tried that trick on me, using MY descriptions and falsely claiming that's what jesus MEANT to say. So I have to be careful.

It took me a long time to figure out why God spent so much time in showing me everything about my soul during my childhood NDE/OBE. It's because the soul is the key to understanding all things spiritual, including the spiritual nature of God himself.

And yes, from the way they keep avoiding my challenge, you are right, it's not one of those things you want to hold your breath over while waiting. If they do, shocker, it'll be a bunch of gibberish that won't mean anything.

 

[Trailblazer]

True spiritual matters are about:
God, his true spiritual nature, laws, judgment process, and plan for all souls.
One's soul, what is it really?
The spiritual realm/universe.
The physical realm/universe.
Why are the spiritual realm and physical realm separate?
What will the "afterlife" be like?
There's way more, but all amounting to the great question of the WHY of it all, and your place in all of it, for what purpose?

True spiritual matters are not concerned with metaphysics. They are about life on earth, moral behavior, building character, honesty and integrity, about loving God and loving other people. If we miss that we have missed the boat.

Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

“The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288

You will find all the answers in the Bible and the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

I could answer some of those questions, but will have to hold off until this challenge plays out. I don't want to give out too much least they plagiarize some of it by using my own words to "explain" what this Baha'u'llah MEANT to say.

There is no need to use your words to explain what Baha'u'llah said.

There are the "original" Writings of Baha'ul'lah on the soul and other such metaphysical subjects so you can go straight to the source and read them yourself...

If you are curious what Baha’u’llah says about the soul, the subject is dealt with in Gleanings. The introduction says pages 136-200 deal with basic questions concerning the soul and its immortality, but the real stuff begins on page 153, LXXX. There is a ‘GO’ box at the top middle of the page. Gleanings, pp. 153-155

Have fun trying to top that but be careful not to plagiarize His words!