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The prophesied Messiah

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions DIR' started by Tranquil Servant, Feb 2, 2019.

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  1. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    you have not documented your case. All the known early found texts are clearly Canaanite/proto-Hebrew. Hint: The clay statues found in early Hebrew villages were Canaanite Gods, and not Egyptian Gods.

    That is what you are arguing is making them into Gods to justify the Trinity. There is only One God as fare as the Hebrew view of the scripture that was confirmed by Abraham and Moses., but yes early writings with Canaanite influence were polytheistic or henotheistic.
    No it does not, and Jewish scholars confirms my view.

    This a rather circular argument to justify your view.
     
    #61 shunyadragon, Feb 8, 2019
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  2. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    See you're rewriting history in my understanding, Hebrews went through Egypt according to the Bible with their own religion, so they already had some of the similar names as Canaanites...

    Each of the different middle eastern religious tribes had similar language; yet each had different religious structures, trying to assume that the Hebrews are automatically the same as they use the same words is ignoring contexts.
    Moses, Abraham, David, etc had the God Most High (EL Elyon) and then his representative Yahavah Elohim, that is the origins of the Trinity.

    So David differentiates in all these verses between them:

    2 Samuel 22:14 & Psalms 18:13 Yahweh thundered from heaven 'and' The Most High uttered his voice. + Psalms 21:7 + Psalms 50:14 + Psalms 78:35 + Psalms 92:1

    Isaiah 46:9 points back paraphrasing Deuteronomy 32:7-9 and reiterates that EL is not like the Elohim; that EL Elyon is the Source, and then Yahavah Elohim is the Lord of Creation.

    In Genesis 14:18-22 where Melchizedek says El Elyon is worshiped, Abraham points that his representative Yahavah as well.
    Judah is under a Curse which Blinds them (Deuteronomy 28:28-29, Zechariah 12:4), because of their rejection of the Lord even their language has been muddled; so following blind people will lead you into a pit (Matthew 15:13-14).
    We haven't got reliable historical data, thus making an assessment, and standing against the Biblical concepts; is where we should study the Biblical text, to come to a conclusion of what it presents.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    No not rewriting history. I rely on the specific known archaeology, and linguistic comparison of the origins of the languages of the Middle East, and specifically the Hebrew tribes. Some of which I have cited.

    There is nothing assumed as automatic from my perspective relying on specific archaeological, linguistic, and by the way genetic evidence.

    So David differentiates in all these verses between them:

    2 Samuel 22:14 & Psalms 18:13 Yahweh thundered from heaven 'and' The Most High uttered his voice. + Psalms 21:7 + Psalms 50:14 + Psalms 78:35 + Psalms 92:1

    Isaiah 46:9 points back paraphrasing Deuteronomy 32:7-9 and reiterates that EL is not like the Elohim; that EL Elyon is the Source, and then Yahavah Elohim is the Lord of Creation.

    In Genesis 14:18-22 where Melchizedek says El Elyon is worshiped, Abraham points that his representative Yahavah as well.
    [/quote]

    The answer remains no, You are still trying to stretch ancient vague references to Canaanite polytheism to justify the Trinity, which Abraham and Moses rejected to restore the pure monotheism to the Hebrew people. Your references represent a latter day Christian interpretation of scripture to justify the polytheism of the Roman Trinity. Contemporary Jewish scholars are justified in rejecting this, and I believe they know their original scripture best. Most scholars today understand that that the justification for the Trinity in the OT is indirect and weak. I will cite more in the future.

    We have the historical data, and you're argument does not have any outside the Bible. I have the most reliable academic evidence available to support my argument, which I have cited and will cite more. All you are doing is a circular argument based on internal Biblical concepts argument without corresponding archaeological and linguistic evidence.

    There is no supporting evidence for Exodus outside the Bible. There is absolutely no text of the Pentateuch older than the Dead Sea scrolls. The only argument is a weak correlation to the history of Egypt, and the possibility of a small migration of Hebrews out of Egypt. The contemporary evidence is that the evolution of the tribes took place in the Hills of Judea.
     
    #63 shunyadragon, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
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  4. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    To be honest this isn't even bothering to deal with what is in the Bible, since you've made it up from a faulty history, and nothing anyone will say is going to make you question; until you recognize you're not dealing with the contexts.
    Since just explained their Blinded by the Curse of Moses, and thus will not see it; you're not even interested in questioning properly.

    In my opinion & Peace B with U. :innocent:
     
  5. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    I deal extensively with what is in the Bible, but the actual physical archaeological, lingusitic, and genetic evidence takes must be considered..


    'Blinded by the Curse of Moses,' how odd and superstitious. So far you have failed to present any objective verifiable archaeological, linguistic, nor historical evidence outside the Bible, and apparently are very comfortable leaving it at that.
     
  6. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Which Hebrew word in Isaiah 52:14 are you referring to, and why do you think the extra yad makes it refer to David? For whatever it's worth, I couldn't find any word in that verse with more than one yad.

    יד כַּאֲשֶׁר שָׁמְמוּ עָלֶיךָ רַבִּים, כֵּן-מִשְׁחַת מֵאִישׁ מַרְאֵהוּ; וְתֹאֲרוֹ, מִבְּנֵי אָדָם.


    David WAS a messiah. He WAS anointed. He united Israel and brought peace between the squabbling tribes. He ushered in a time of peace and prosperity.

    I looked up each of your verses, and I didn't see where any of them spoke of the Messiah being God. For example, one spoke of Judah having the NAME "The LORD is our Righteous Savior." Well, yes. He is. But the Messiah isn't.

    Elohim has multiple meanings. It can mean judges, heavenly beings, gods, or it can be the royal plural for the just one true God (this is the usage that is most often employed in scripture).

    The yad hey and vav hey (we really don't know how to pronounce it) is Elohim (singular), not "one of the elohim." In other words, the yad hey and vav hey is the sacred name of God, not merely some heavenly being.

    These things are not merely my opinion, but the consensus of Jewish scholars for thousands of years.
     
  7. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The Curse in Deuteronomy 28, Leviticus 26 was placed when the 30 pieces of silver were paid for the Lord, and put into the Potters-field in the House of Israel (Zechariah 11).

    It states Judah is specifically blinded in Zechariah 12:4 & everyone is in Deuteronomy 28:28-29.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  8. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    משׁחת H4893 instead becomes משׁחתי H4886

    This makes it into something similar to this:

    Isaiah 52:13-14 Behold, my servant will deal wisely. He will be exalted and lifted up, and will be very high. Just as many were astonished by him, for I anointed him more than others appearance, and his form more than a son of man.

    So then when we look at these two verses we can see that Isaiah paraphrased David purposely in multiple places.

    Psalms 89:19-21 Then you spoke in vision to your saints, and said, “I have given strength to the warrior. I have exalted a young man from the people. (20) I have found David, my servant. I have anointed him with my holy oil, (21) with whom my hand shall be established. My arm will also strengthen him.
    From Zechariah 11 2nd temple destruction, the flock that left has foolish shepherds over it (Zechariah 11:15-17); which paraphrases Ezekiel 34:2-3, Jeremiah 23:1-2, where they're finally removed at the Messianic age.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
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  9. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Thank you so much for your original source manuscript response -- so excellent! Unfortunately, the Dead Sea Scrolls version of Isaiah is not considered canon. You realize that more than one version is available? It is the Masoretic text that is used.

    Isaiah 52:13-14
    יג הִנֵּה יַשְׂכִּיל, עַבְדִּי; יָרוּם וְנִשָּׂא וְגָבַהּ, מְאֹד. 13 Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.
    יד כַּאֲשֶׁר שָׁמְמוּ עָלֶיךָ רַבִּים, כֵּן-מִשְׁחַת מֵאִישׁ מַרְאֵהוּ; וְתֹאֲרוֹ, מִבְּנֵי אָדָם. 14 According as many were appalled at thee--so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men--

    However, FWIW, I don't see where your own translation is messianic.

    Psalm 89 is clearly about King David. Not sure what you are trying to say.

    The next paragraph basically spews a bunch of references without quoting or context.
     
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  10. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Yes, yet since Isaiah 53 was seen as Messianic in the 2nd Temple period, and that for once whereas a majority would be the most logical, this makes far more contextual sense of Isaiah 52:10-15, as the spirit of Salvation is a sanctified vessel, put into the flesh of David...

    It is hardly likely it said that this then is the most blemished, compared to being the anointed one.
    The Messiah comes to be cut off to begin in Daniel 9:26, Isaiah 52:14, which are the only places with the specific word 'anointed'.

    This has tons of contextual reasons that then catches out all the hypocrites; so that only the Godly remain in the Messianic age.
    There are multiple keywords the same in both sentences (Psalms 89:19-21 & Isaiah 52:13-14), so we can clearly show they are interlinked, and speaking about the same thing.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  11. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    The Second Temple Period was one of messianic fervor. There were all sorts of little messianic cults with their false messiahs, and they had their esoteric understanding of the prophets. We don't take esoteric understandings as appropriate understanding.

    What happens is that human beings are predisposed to see patterns where none exist. Its why we see a face when all there is, is a circle with two dots and a curve. We look at the clouds and see castles and trains and bunny rabbits. We look at Rorschach inkblots and see dancing ladies and men on motorcycles. It seems like every time you turn around, someone is seeing the Virgin Mary on a piece of toast.

    In the EXACT same way, we can "see" meaning in words that isn't really there. And that is exactly what especially religious people tend to do, especially the apocalyptic-minded sort. They will read a verse like Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." which is obviously about the Exodus, and somehow they imagine that it is about Jesus.
     
  12. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Rabbinic Judaism according to the Tanakh are the foolish shepherds over the flock until the Messiah comes (Zechariah 11:15-17 => Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23)...

    Thus esoteric understandings are one of the only ways a Jew can follow the Tanakh, and refuse man made ideas...

    Understandably people are blinded to questioning, whilst they go against the Messiah (Zechariah 12:4, Deuteronomy 28:28-29).
    Having spent 14 years debating a Jewish professor he often used this insult; comparatively the way we see the Bible is like a precision engineering diagram, where every word has tons of additional contexts, and interlinks like computer code...

    Put it this way Rashi, and Mamonides are amateurish in exegesis....

    Where instead of having the overall diagram as a building, that becomes the temple of the Lord, where there is a Chief Corner Stone, a Plummet Line, a Measuring Line, 4 Craftsmen, Builders, etc..

    These interlinking contexts are mainly overlooked, so it is turn into a blotch of undefined structure, where it is only about seeking the reward at the end.
    You're being sloppy with exegesis as well, the verse is cited by Matthew 2:15, and thus Christians assume Matthew had it right; not realizing people always add their own interpretations, and also are not good at exegesis.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  13. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Loving God and my neighbor as myself.

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    Wizanda, I'm sure you are a wonderful person, but it's rather wearying to discuss prophecy with you because you don't seem to have any sort of context. For example, you quote only the part of Zechariah 11 on the second shepherd, when really the passage is about two shepherds, the first will break the covenant between Zechariah and the Nations, and the second brings grief between the Northern and Southern Kingdoms. Both shepherds are actually Isaiah, sent by God. At least that's how it looks to me when *I* read it. Anyone who sees something different is more than welcome to make their case, Jew, Christian, Pastafarian....

    Yes, Matthew 2:15 ALSO says, "Out of Egypt have I called my son," but what Matthew is doing is QUOTING Hosea 11:1 and making it seem like it is saying something which it doesn't. IOW, if you look up Hosea 11:1, you can see that Matthew is OBVIOUSLY wrong.
     
  14. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Which is why you will never be in the Messianic age if that is how you feel; it is an age of enlightenment, and not questioning is the opposite.
    Just said the same, we know Matthew is muddled in some of his prophecy expectations; that doesn't actually affect what Yeshua is, just because some people are bad reporters.
    • Zechariah 11:1-2 The Wailing of the Shepherds is prophesied in Jeremiah 25:30-38, after the return from the Babylonian Exile.
    • Zechariah built the temple and then prophesied its destruction as the Cedars Burning is reference to it.
    • As Jeremiah 10:21 points out the Leaders are Brutish, and refuse the Lord; so the 3 foolish shepherds who refuse the Lord (Yeshua) were the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Levites, so he ended the Abrahamic covenant in Zechariah 11:10.
    • When the 30 pieces of silver were paid and put into the house of Israel (Zechariah 11:12-14), the covenant with Sinai was nullified; so both Israel and Judah have been put under the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 28, Leviticus 26).
    • Where at the Roman siege they eat each others flesh due to starvation (Zechariah 11:9); which is a specific reference in Moses's Curse (Deuteronomy 28:53-55).
    • With the end of Zechariah 11:15-17 being the foolish shepherds, of Islam, Christianity, and Rabbinic Judaism misleading the world until the time of the Messiah.
    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #74 wizanda, Feb 14, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019
  15. Dantedeven

    Dantedeven Member

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    Righteous Scribes, Son of Man, Ancient of Days,
     
  16. Clear

    Clear Well-Known Member
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    Hi Tranquil Servant :

    I had thought to offer a survey of the early textual model of the Messiah that describes why the early Judeo-Christians honored the Messiah.



    1) The Great, Eternal, cosmic plan to Educate Spirits and the Messiahs role in accomplishing this great, eternal, cosmic plan

    I like the early Judeo-Christians’ concept of the Messiah being a pre-eminently intelligent being, full of grace and intelligence who was chosen by God to be his “right hand” and colleague in administering a great eternal, cosmic plan of tutoring the spirits of mankind in moral and social laws that are designed to (ultimately) prepare them to live in a social heaven in harmony and joy for ever.

    For example, the prophet Enoch, describes his revelation of heaven and describes the spirits of mankind wanting this wisdom as “ the thirsty ones drink (from the fountains of wisdom…) and become filled with wisdom.”. The plan from the beginning was to send embodied spirits to earth to receive moral wisdom and experience which would educate them regarding good and evil and thus prepare those who chose to learn to do good for heaven where “… their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones.” 1st Enoch 48:1


    2) The Messiah as one who was chosen for his role from the beginning (The Lamb slain from the Foundation of the world)

    Enoch describes the choosing of a Messiah/Savior who would serve as an important part of accomplishing this plan, saying “At that hour, that Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits, the head of days,, 3 even before the creation of the sun and the moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of the Spirits. 4 He will become a staff for the righteous ones in order that they may lean on him and not fall. He is the light of the gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts. 5 All those who dwell upon the earth shall fall and worship before him: they shall glorify, bless, and sing the name of the Lord of the Spirits. 6 For this purpose he became the Chosen One…”


    3) The Messiah as creator, under the direction of God, the Father.

    The early texts describe this pre-eminent, God-like colleague as having created the earth under the direction of the Father, “...the creator of the universe...through his beloved servant Jesus Christ, through whom he called us from darkness to light, from ignorance to the knowledge…" 1 Clement 59:2-3 In his appellation as the “word” (logos) of God, the Messiah is in the beginning with God and is described as “Lord (owner) of the whole world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, “Let us make man according to our image and likeness…” The Epistle of Barnabas 5:5


    4) The Messiah as an administrator in the Old Testament era.

    As a co-administrator of the plan, He is also referred to as “The Right arm” of God (much as we refer to a “right hand man” of a superior) in his early role of teaching mankind the two, great, eternal principles of both Justice and mercy.. Thus in teaching mankind the concept of Justice (as well as the inadequacy of using this principle without mercy) the Prophet Enoch is told “ Come and I will show you the right hand of the Omnipresent one,....3...as it is written, ‘He made his glorious arm go at the right hand of Moses.” If we skip ahead many generations through the various stories of Israel and their challenges with Polytheism, and difficulties remaining true to God as their religion underwent multiple evolutions (which various prophets attempt to reform), at some point God promises to remember them despite their faults. (read further)


    5) The Messiah as Jesus who was promised to Israel and the rest of the world

    In the early texts he was to come to the Jews in the meridian of time, not because they were deserving of it, but to fulfill promises to their forefathers : “And I bore their bitterness because of humility; that I might save my nation and instruct it. 13 and that I might not nullify the promises to the patriarchs, to whom I was promised for the salvation of their offspring. “ Odes of Solomon #31: vs11-13



    6) The Messiah as the first to accomplish a resurrection

    The Messiah was seen as one who opened the door to resurrection as he is the first to be resurrected by God, his Father. Thus the early Synagogal prayer says of God, “ You have loosed the boundary of death, You who are the Maker of life for the dead, through Jesus Christ, our hope! Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - #3:1 (aposCon 7.34.1-8) ;



    7) The Messiah as the one who freed the dead from Hades at the first resurrection

    The decensus literature also speaks of his role among the dead who had never had the gospel preached to them) and his decensus into Hades to free the captives (during the three days after his death and before his resurrection). Bartholomews text relates it thusly : "Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.” And Jesus answered: “Blessed are you Bartholomew, my beloved, because you saw this mystery. And now I will tell you everything you ask me. “When I vanished from the cross, I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. …and I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.” Bartholomew chapt one

    The same story is related by the Odes of Solomon thusly : “ And he who knew and exalted me is the Most High in all his perfection. 8 And he glorified me by his kindness, and raised my understanding to the height of truth. 9 And from there he gave me the way of his paths, and I opened the doors which were closed. 10 And I shattered the bars of iron,....11 And nothing appeared closed to me, because I was the opening of everything. 12 And I went toward all my bondsmen in order to loose them; that I might not abandon anyone bound or binding. 13 And I gave my knowledge generously, and my resurrection through my love. 14 And I sowed my fruits in hearts, and transformed them through myself. 15 then they received my blessing and lived, and they were gathered to me and were saved. Odes of Solomon #17:3,6-15;

    Matt 27: 52 tells us that at Jesus’ resurrection from the Dead, The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people." The Sons of Simeon, who had died, were among those who were resurrected at the time Jesus resurrected and they describe this occurrence of Jesus’ entry into Hades and the freeing of those who were being taught by prior prophets who had also died. (Gospel of Nicodemus)


    8) The role of the Messiah in the gradual gathering of Israel toward the Gospel.

    The prophet Enoch is told that, in the latter days that the messiah will be delivered in his return and his people Israel will be gathered from all quarters of the world, from among the Gentiles and other nations, toward the New Covenant (the New Testament covenant where Mercy balances Justice) and, at some point, they will recognize their Messiah and be gathered toward this standard. This is described thusly “...then the Holy One blessed be he, will at once remember his own righteousness, merit, mercy, and grace, and, for his own sake, will deliver his great arm, and his own righteousness will support him, as it is written,... 8...For my own sake, for the sake of my own merit and righteousness, I shall deliver my arm, and by it save my sons from among the gentiles…he, will reveal his great arm in the world, and show it to the gentiles: ... At once Israel shall be saved from among the gentiles and the Messiah shall appear to them and bring them up to Jerusalem with great joy. Moreover, the kingdom of Israel, gathered from the four quarters of the world, shall eat with the Messiah, and the gentiles shall eat with them, as it is written, “The Lord bares his holy arm In the sight of all the nations, And all the ends of the earth shall see The salvation of our God” 3rd Enoch 48:1,6-10 (compare .” Isa 52:10)

    Other texts make this same wonderful promise to Israel : For example, the Patriarch Asher tells his sons “You will be scattered to the four corners of the earth; in the dispersion you shall be regarded as worthless, like useless water,” And, speaking of the Messiah, the promise is made that “He will save Israel and all the nations,. Tell these things, my children, to your children, so that they will not disobey him. For I know that you will be throughly disobedient, that you will be thoroughly irreligious, heeding not God’s Law but human commandments, being corrupted by evil. For this reason, you will be scattered like Dan and Gad, my brothers, you shall not know your own lands, tribe, or language. But he will gather you in faith through his compassion and on account of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Asher 7:3-7


    9) The Messiah as both Judge and Heir to this Kingdom of his Fathers

    In this early Judeo-Christian model, the messiah takes on the role of a central administrator, as heir of this kingdom of individuals who gathered toward the principles he taught. Thus, after the Judgement it is said of the Messiah that “You [God] appointed him as Your firstborn son. There is none like him, as a prince and ruler in all Your inhabited world […] the crown of the heavens and glory of the clouds You have placed on him […] and the angel of Your peace in his congregation. …You gave him righteous statutes, as a father gives a son…..” 4q369 Frag.1 Col. 1

    The merciful attitude of the Messiah as Judge :
    “Jesus said to him: “Bartholomew, the Father named me Christ, that I might come down on earth and anoint with the oil of life, everyone who came to me. And he called me Jesus, that I might heal every sin of the ignorant and give to men the truth of God. Bartholomew CH IV


    I believe that the early Judeo-Christian textual model of the Messiah and his central role in administrating the plan of God the Father is what makes this Messiah character so incredibly, uniquely, honorable among all existence. I do not think the modern descriptions and interpretations of him are any more rational or logical or demonstrate better why the Messiah is worthy of honor than the early descriptions of him and what he accomplished.

    In any case, and whatever the beliefs of others are, I hope you have a good spiritual journey in coming to your own models as to What and Who the Messiah is.

    Clear
    ειφυτωτζω
     
    #76 Clear, Apr 27, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2019
  17. JohnAmes

    JohnAmes Member

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    Matthew 11 New International Version (NIV)
    Jesus and John the Baptist

    2 When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples
    3 to ask him,
    “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”
     
  18. JohnAmes

    JohnAmes Member

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    Leviticus 17 New International Version (NIV)

    Eating Blood Forbidden
    17:

    10 “‘I will set my face against any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who eats blood, and I will cut them off from the people. 11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.c]">[c] 12 Therefore I say to the Israelites, “None of you may eat blood, nor may any foreigner residing among you eat blood.”

    13 “‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing among you who hunts any animal or bird that may be eaten must drain out the blood and cover it with earth, 14 because the life of every creature is its blood. That is why I have said to the Israelites, “You must not eat the blood of any creature, because the life of every creature is its blood; anyone who eats it must be cut off.”

    15 “‘Anyone, whether native-born or foreigner, who eats anything found dead or torn by wild animals must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be ceremonially unclean till evening; then they will be clean. 16 But if they do not wash their clothes and bathe themselves, they will be held responsible.’”
     
    #78 JohnAmes, Aug 29, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
  19. JohnAmes

    JohnAmes Member

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    notice how they had to baptize themselves after.

    but jesus taught everyone to drink blood after baptism

    unclean
     
  20. JohnAmes

    JohnAmes Member

    Joined:
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    Corrosion of Conformity:
    "help me jesus help me clean my wounds....he said he cant heal that kind"
     
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