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The prophesied Messiah

Discussion in 'Abrahamic Religions DIR' started by Tranquil Servant, Feb 2, 2019.

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  1. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    you have not documented your case. All the known early found texts are clearly Canaanite/proto-Hebrew. Hint: The clay statues found in early Hebrew villages were Canaanite Gods, and not Egyptian Gods.

    That is what you are arguing is making them into Gods to justify the Trinity. There is only One God as fare as the Hebrew view of the scripture that was confirmed by Abraham and Moses., but yes early writings with Canaanite influence were polytheistic or henotheistic.
    No it does not, and Jewish scholars confirms my view.

    This a rather circular argument to justify your view.
     
    #61 shunyadragon, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
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  2. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    See you're rewriting history in my understanding, Hebrews went through Egypt according to the Bible with their own religion, so they already had some of the similar names as Canaanites...

    Each of the different middle eastern religious tribes had similar language; yet each had different religious structures, trying to assume that the Hebrews are automatically the same as they use the same words is ignoring contexts.
    Moses, Abraham, David, etc had the God Most High (EL Elyon) and then his representative Yahavah Elohim, that is the origins of the Trinity.

    So David differentiates in all these verses between them:

    2 Samuel 22:14 & Psalms 18:13 Yahweh thundered from heaven 'and' The Most High uttered his voice. + Psalms 21:7 + Psalms 50:14 + Psalms 78:35 + Psalms 92:1

    Isaiah 46:9 points back paraphrasing Deuteronomy 32:7-9 and reiterates that EL is not like the Elohim; that EL Elyon is the Source, and then Yahavah Elohim is the Lord of Creation.

    In Genesis 14:18-22 where Melchizedek says El Elyon is worshiped, Abraham points that his representative Yahavah as well.
    Judah is under a Curse which Blinds them (Deuteronomy 28:28-29, Zechariah 12:4), because of their rejection of the Lord even their language has been muddled; so following blind people will lead you into a pit (Matthew 15:13-14).
    We haven't got reliable historical data, thus making an assessment, and standing against the Biblical concepts; is where we should study the Biblical text, to come to a conclusion of what it presents.

    In my opinion.
    :innocent:
     
  3. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    No not rewriting history. I rely on the specific known archaeology, and linguistic comparison of the origins of the languages of the Middle East, and specifically the Hebrew tribes. Some of which I have cited.

    There is nothing assumed as automatic from my perspective relying on specific archaeological, linguistic, and by the way genetic evidence.

    So David differentiates in all these verses between them:

    2 Samuel 22:14 & Psalms 18:13 Yahweh thundered from heaven 'and' The Most High uttered his voice. + Psalms 21:7 + Psalms 50:14 + Psalms 78:35 + Psalms 92:1

    Isaiah 46:9 points back paraphrasing Deuteronomy 32:7-9 and reiterates that EL is not like the Elohim; that EL Elyon is the Source, and then Yahavah Elohim is the Lord of Creation.

    In Genesis 14:18-22 where Melchizedek says El Elyon is worshiped, Abraham points that his representative Yahavah as well.
    [/quote]

    The answer remains no, You are still trying to stretch ancient vague references to Canaanite polytheism to justify the Trinity, which Abraham and Moses rejected to restore the pure monotheism to the Hebrew people. Your references represent a latter day Christian interpretation of scripture to justify the polytheism of the Roman Trinity. Contemporary Jewish scholars are justified in rejecting this, and I believe they know their original scripture best. Most scholars today understand that that the justification for the Trinity in the OT is indirect and weak. I will cite more in the future.

    We have the historical data, and you're argument does not have any outside the Bible. I have the most reliable academic evidence available to support my argument, which I have cited and will cite more. All you are doing is a circular argument based on internal Biblical concepts argument without corresponding archaeological and linguistic evidence.

    There is no supporting evidence for Exodus outside the Bible. There is absolutely no text of the Pentateuch older than the Dead Sea scrolls. The only argument is a weak correlation to the history of Egypt, and the possibility of a small migration of Hebrews out of Egypt. The contemporary evidence is that the evolution of the tribes took place in the Hills of Judea.
     
    #63 shunyadragon, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
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  4. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    To be honest this isn't even bothering to deal with what is in the Bible, since you've made it up from a faulty history, and nothing anyone will say is going to make you question; until you recognize you're not dealing with the contexts.
    Since just explained their Blinded by the Curse of Moses, and thus will not see it; you're not even interested in questioning properly.

    In my opinion & Peace B with U. :innocent:
     
  5. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Well-Known Member
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    I deal extensively with what is in the Bible, but the actual physical archaeological, lingusitic, and genetic evidence takes must be considered..


    'Blinded by the Curse of Moses,' how odd and superstitious. So far you have failed to present any objective verifiable archaeological, linguistic, nor historical evidence outside the Bible, and apparently are very comfortable leaving it at that.
     
  6. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Tolkienite

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    Which Hebrew word in Isaiah 52:14 are you referring to, and why do you think the extra yad makes it refer to David? For whatever it's worth, I couldn't find any word in that verse with more than one yad.

    יד כַּאֲשֶׁר שָׁמְמוּ עָלֶיךָ רַבִּים, כֵּן-מִשְׁחַת מֵאִישׁ מַרְאֵהוּ; וְתֹאֲרוֹ, מִבְּנֵי אָדָם.


    David WAS a messiah. He WAS anointed. He united Israel and brought peace between the squabbling tribes. He ushered in a time of peace and prosperity.

    I looked up each of your verses, and I didn't see where any of them spoke of the Messiah being God. For example, one spoke of Judah having the NAME "The LORD is our Righteous Savior." Well, yes. He is. But the Messiah isn't.

    Elohim has multiple meanings. It can mean judges, heavenly beings, gods, or it can be the royal plural for the just one true God (this is the usage that is most often employed in scripture).

    The yad hey and vav hey (we really don't know how to pronounce it) is Elohim (singular), not "one of the elohim." In other words, the yad hey and vav hey is the sacred name of God, not merely some heavenly being.

    These things are not merely my opinion, but the consensus of Jewish scholars for thousands of years.
     
  7. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    The Curse in Deuteronomy 28, Leviticus 26 was placed when the 30 pieces of silver were paid for the Lord, and put into the Potters-field in the House of Israel (Zechariah 11).

    It states Judah is specifically blinded in Zechariah 12:4 & everyone is in Deuteronomy 28:28-29.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  8. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    משׁחת H4893 instead becomes משׁחתי H4886

    This makes it into something similar to this:

    Isaiah 52:13-14 Behold, my servant will deal wisely. He will be exalted and lifted up, and will be very high. Just as many were astonished by him, for I anointed him more than others appearance, and his form more than a son of man.

    So then when we look at these two verses we can see that Isaiah paraphrased David purposely in multiple places.

    Psalms 89:19-21 Then you spoke in vision to your saints, and said, “I have given strength to the warrior. I have exalted a young man from the people. (20) I have found David, my servant. I have anointed him with my holy oil, (21) with whom my hand shall be established. My arm will also strengthen him.
    From Zechariah 11 2nd temple destruction, the flock that left has foolish shepherds over it (Zechariah 11:15-17); which paraphrases Ezekiel 34:2-3, Jeremiah 23:1-2, where they're finally removed at the Messianic age.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  9. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Tolkienite

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    Thank you so much for your original source manuscript response -- so excellent! Unfortunately, the Dead Sea Scrolls version of Isaiah is not considered canon. You realize that more than one version is available? It is the Masoretic text that is used.

    Isaiah 52:13-14
    יג הִנֵּה יַשְׂכִּיל, עַבְדִּי; יָרוּם וְנִשָּׂא וְגָבַהּ, מְאֹד. 13 Behold, My servant shall prosper, he shall be exalted and lifted up, and shall be very high.
    יד כַּאֲשֶׁר שָׁמְמוּ עָלֶיךָ רַבִּים, כֵּן-מִשְׁחַת מֵאִישׁ מַרְאֵהוּ; וְתֹאֲרוֹ, מִבְּנֵי אָדָם. 14 According as many were appalled at thee--so marred was his visage unlike that of a man, and his form unlike that of the sons of men--

    However, FWIW, I don't see where your own translation is messianic.

    Psalm 89 is clearly about King David. Not sure what you are trying to say.

    The next paragraph basically spews a bunch of references without quoting or context.
     
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  10. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Yes, yet since Isaiah 53 was seen as Messianic in the 2nd Temple period, and that for once whereas a majority would be the most logical, this makes far more contextual sense of Isaiah 52:10-15, as the spirit of Salvation is a sanctified vessel, put into the flesh of David...

    It is hardly likely it said that this then is the most blemished, compared to being the anointed one.
    The Messiah comes to be cut off to begin in Daniel 9:26, Isaiah 52:14, which are the only places with the specific word 'anointed'.

    This has tons of contextual reasons that then catches out all the hypocrites; so that only the Godly remain in the Messianic age.
    There are multiple keywords the same in both sentences (Psalms 89:19-21 & Isaiah 52:13-14), so we can clearly show they are interlinked, and speaking about the same thing.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  11. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Tolkienite

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    The Second Temple Period was one of messianic fervor. There were all sorts of little messianic cults with their false messiahs, and they had their esoteric understanding of the prophets. We don't take esoteric understandings as appropriate understanding.

    What happens is that human beings are predisposed to see patterns where none exist. Its why we see a face when all there is, is a circle with two dots and a curve. We look at the clouds and see castles and trains and bunny rabbits. We look at Rorschach inkblots and see dancing ladies and men on motorcycles. It seems like every time you turn around, someone is seeing the Virgin Mary on a piece of toast.

    In the EXACT same way, we can "see" meaning in words that isn't really there. And that is exactly what especially religious people tend to do, especially the apocalyptic-minded sort. They will read a verse like Hosea 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." which is obviously about the Exodus, and somehow they imagine that it is about Jesus.
     
  12. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Rabbinic Judaism according to the Tanakh are the foolish shepherds over the flock until the Messiah comes (Zechariah 11:15-17 => Ezekiel 34, Jeremiah 23)...

    Thus esoteric understandings are one of the only ways a Jew can follow the Tanakh, and refuse man made ideas...

    Understandably people are blinded to questioning, whilst they go against the Messiah (Zechariah 12:4, Deuteronomy 28:28-29).
    Having spent 14 years debating a Jewish professor he often used this insult; comparatively the way we see the Bible is like a precision engineering diagram, where every word has tons of additional contexts, and interlinks like computer code...

    Put it this way Rashi, and Mamonides are amateurish in exegesis....

    Where instead of having the overall diagram as a building, that becomes the temple of the Lord, where there is a Chief Corner Stone, a Plummet Line, a Measuring Line, 4 Craftsmen, Builders, etc..

    These interlinking contexts are mainly overlooked, so it is turn into a blotch of undefined structure, where it is only about seeking the reward at the end.
    You're being sloppy with exegesis as well, the verse is cited by Matthew 2:15, and thus Christians assume Matthew had it right; not realizing people always add their own interpretations, and also are not good at exegesis.

    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
  13. IndigoChild5559

    IndigoChild5559 Tolkienite

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    Wizanda, I'm sure you are a wonderful person, but it's rather wearying to discuss prophecy with you because you don't seem to have any sort of context. For example, you quote only the part of Zechariah 11 on the second shepherd, when really the passage is about two shepherds, the first will break the covenant between Zechariah and the Nations, and the second brings grief between the Northern and Southern Kingdoms. Both shepherds are actually Isaiah, sent by God. At least that's how it looks to me when *I* read it. Anyone who sees something different is more than welcome to make their case, Jew, Christian, Pastafarian....

    Yes, Matthew 2:15 ALSO says, "Out of Egypt have I called my son," but what Matthew is doing is QUOTING Hosea 11:1 and making it seem like it is saying something which it doesn't. IOW, if you look up Hosea 11:1, you can see that Matthew is OBVIOUSLY wrong.
     
  14. wizanda

    wizanda One Accepts All Religious Texts
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    Which is why you will never be in the Messianic age if that is how you feel; it is an age of enlightenment, and not questioning is the opposite.
    Just said the same, we know Matthew is muddled in some of his prophecy expectations; that doesn't actually affect what Yeshua is, just because some people are bad reporters.
    • Zechariah 11:1-2 The Wailing of the Shepherds is prophesied in Jeremiah 25:30-38, after the return from the Babylonian Exile.
    • Zechariah built the temple and then prophesied its destruction as the Cedars Burning is reference to it.
    • As Jeremiah 10:21 points out the Leaders are Brutish, and refuse the Lord; so the 3 foolish shepherds who refuse the Lord (Yeshua) were the Pharisees, Sadducees, and Levites, so he ended the Abrahamic covenant in Zechariah 11:10.
    • When the 30 pieces of silver were paid and put into the house of Israel (Zechariah 11:12-14), the covenant with Sinai was nullified; so both Israel and Judah have been put under the Curse of Moses (Deuteronomy 28, Leviticus 26).
    • Where at the Roman siege they eat each others flesh due to starvation (Zechariah 11:9); which is a specific reference in Moses's Curse (Deuteronomy 28:53-55).
    • With the end of Zechariah 11:15-17 being the foolish shepherds, of Islam, Christianity, and Rabbinic Judaism misleading the world until the time of the Messiah.
    In my opinion. :innocent:
     
    #74 wizanda, Feb 14, 2019 at 2:27 AM
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2019 at 2:35 AM
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