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The Proof of Truth

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Pah, Feb 24, 2005.

  1. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    The Proof of Truth
    Challenging the Criteria for Truth

    By T. M. Moore
    http://www.pfm.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm&CONTENTID=13389

    August 19, 2004

    How is it possible to "prove the truth of our [Christian] beliefs"?
     
  2. Jaymes

    Jaymes The cake is a lie

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    It isn't.
     
  3. linwood

    linwood Well-Known Member

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    Did Iris write that?
     
  4. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    Good article pah..... but I recognize the difference between "proving" Christianinty and talking about why I am a Christian..... I don't feel the need to "prove" anything to anyone.... my faith is just that= mine, and faith.... I always laugh (in a good natured way..;) )at Christians who are so insecure that they jump through hoops to "prove" the validity of their beliefs.... oh well.... thanks again for the article.
     
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  5. Lycan

    Lycan Preternatural

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    since religious (or spiritual or whatever) truth is nothing more than opinion of the truth based on faith, experience, etc. it is not possible to prove as "absolute" truth.
     
  6. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    You must spread some Karma around before giving it to SOGFPP again.

    Thanks Scott. That's so true.
     
  7. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    There might be a blur between proving the existance of God generically and Christianity and I want to make a couple of observations on the two.

    The bible is claimed as a piece of evidence by many christians. The ones who say it isn't will still assert that all or most of its contents are true and accurate. As such i would expect the bible to do two things

    1) lead to the conclusion of an evidencable God because nowhere in the text does it say he is not evidencable and in fact people in the bible saw god and jesus a number of times (god in the ot and jesus in the nt) The bible cannot be presented as evidence (word of god) and than christians say the god is not evidencable today unless they conceed that maybe the god in the bible is not currently here .

    2) specific claims of the religion by their definition should be quantifable and as such non christians should if they are pitched christianity, expect those items to be at least qualified yet they rarely are. those specific items are

    1) heaven (location)
    2) hell (location)
    3) noah's arc
    4) the soul
    5) the 500 witness to the resurrection (collaborating witness)
    6) a discription of god via that which is exprienced by the 5 senses and collaborated by non christians

    judiasm holds the same burdon for the torah (so not the 500 witness) but many of them hold the stories as allogorical so the boat would not be a contigency or any torah stories.

    the koran constraints would be the same as the jewish.

    If the religion has a book that they provide as gospel it has inherited the burdon of evidence not only for the validity of its contents but the consistancy and the production of a diety that is consistant of the one in the pages of its book unless it claims the stories are allogorical and the god is also allogorical.
     
  8. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    The problem here is your expectations......
    Hmmmm..... Isaiah 45:15 Truly you are a God who hides himself, O God and Savior of Israel. ..... would you like more?
    I guess.... to a "Bible only" Christian that would be true, but to the one billion Catholics on this planet------> NOT.
    Huh? Faith should be quantifiable? Mystery should be tangible? Spirituality should be visible? ........ don't get where you came up with this....

    Scott
     
  9. Nick Soapdish

    Nick Soapdish Secret Agent

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    There seems to be some confusion with the word "proof". We tend to think of the word "proof" in the context of a formal argument such as a mathematical proof.

    However, if I set out to prove to you that Christianity is true, then if at the end of our conversation, you are compelled to believe it is true, I have succeeded in my proof. It is not necessary to construct a formal argument to prove something is true to someone else.

    Formal proofs are good for a universal audience, however, I will never be able to construct one because I will never get a set of assumptions everyone agrees on (at lease for any metaphysical subject).
     
  10. Nick Soapdish

    Nick Soapdish Secret Agent

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    It is odd that the postmodern world asserts to us that we can believe anything we want, so long as we do not claim that it is actually true. :rolleyes:
     
  11. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Hmm... I think I might agree that there is no way to prove any religious beliefs (whether they be Christian or otherwise). And I think that I also agree that there is no need to.
     
  12. standing_on_one_foot

    standing_on_one_foot Well-Known Member

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    What if one of my beliefs is that my beliefs can't be proven true? Is that one proven true, in that case? So is it, by default, disproved, and thus, proved? :bonk: (ignore me)
     
  13. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Scott, I would like to point out the bible has a theme of a visable God and that one phrase or if you find two or three more will not overide the theme of constant interaction with a Jesus who walked the earth by the writeres of the OT in the good book.

    wow one billion..that is a lot of catholics. But the catholics do see the Bible as the word of God don't they? I mean I know they have added present interpretations of the divine but the good book is still part of curriculum and one of the more important ones right?

    As far as faith and mystery I want to make a quick point. The christian religion is big on have a personal relationship with God. How can you have a mysterious personal relationship with someone? It is either one or the other. The quantifable aspects of the religion are those asserted as true. For instance the conceptualization of heaven and hell. Heaven is claimed as a residence for good souls and Hell for bad ones. But this is without the known evidence or existance of

    souls,
    heavens location
    hells location

    if one were to say it is allogical within their belief structure I could chalk it up to an abstraction but as this is a tangable set of places believed to exist with rulers over each at some point (espically with the percieved personal relationship) that somebody would know their locations and souls would have been discovered.

    As a philosophy religions are very strong in so many areas, Christianity included but in inclusion of living breating entitiies that are personal but unevidencable is kinda hard to swallow.
     
  14. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Assess it than. You qualifiy other non religious things everyday. Why stop at religion? I will give you an example. I drive home on the highway. I see the guy ahead of me riding the line. I have faith he is going to do a lane change even though his signal is not on.

    In the end it doesn't matter if he did a lane change or not but what I did learn is that I went on faith and slowed down based on

    1) I had no way of knowing he would do a lane change --so I went on faith
    2) I drew my conclusion based on his vector of travel.

    I study martial arts. I see a guy with a stick about to hit another guy. I have faith in my ability to disarm the other guy so I step over pick a strong position in my body relationship to his and attempt a disarm.

    1) I have no way of knowing I will not be injured but have faith I will not and will be able to disarm.
    2) I assessed it on knowledge gained over the years

    I have faith in my current gf ( i am single this is a hypothical). i put a ring on her finger telling her i want to marry her. she says she loves me

    1) i have faith that she loves me but cannot prove it
    2) i can assess that through her actions

    these three senerios all have two things in common with religion

    1) they cannot be assessed with math
    2) they are based on a personal (though brief in the first two) relationship

    Religion is based on a personal relationship and your religion has book inspired by god according to your beliefs....that makes assessable. not mathimitcally but cognativly without the use of math just as i did in my three make believe senerios which happen to people in real life.
     
  15. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    many many things in life can and never will be able to be proven as true. You can assess the validity of it by examining its

    1) continuity
    2) context it was discovered under
    3) relativity to your current situation
    4) evaluation of reliablity of data obtained.
     
  16. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    ..... and I would like to point out that this is not the same era and that Jesus does not (physically) walk the earth in this present day. God revealed himself to us (I believe) as Jesus Christ, who established a Church to carry on his mission and his message.... I would not believe in the Bible if I did not believe in the Church..... Catholics look at Scripture a little bit differently than other Christians you may have chatted with.
    Sure is..... but it's importance is because the CHURCH says it's important..... I don't believe the Bible has "authority" over the Church, but the other way around.
    The "personal relationship" catch phrase is not Catholic.... so I won't comment on what other Christian faiths may believe about this...... but mystery is a major component of "original" Christianity. The Mystery of the Trinity..... the mystery of evil..... the mystery of salvation..... these are all things (and there are many more) that we strive to understand..... but yet, still have faith in, because we believe in the Church.
    Again.... the problem is your expectations.... I don't expect heaven or hell to be a physical place.... some place you could find on "God's Map".... it's, yes, a mystery to me.

    Scott
     
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  17. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    Feathers, your pagan belief doesn't propogate its beliefs or claim prophets so in your case no. Many religions however do propogate, recruit and claim prophets. If they do to an outsider I would consider it reasonable to expect them to provide validity evidence or proof for their thoughts. I realize others do not feel this way otherwise unevidencable religions like Muslim and Christianity would not enjoy the success that they have but with "recorded history" that followers of both religions claim I submit that their is a tangable piece of "evidence" in their literature that bears examination for accepting of their faith. If one chooses not to examine their literature before converting so be it but I see that as an act of conversion out of ignorance in lew of the ones inablity to have a direction confirmation via their 5 senses from a higher power the literature is all that one can use to draw a conclusion of that religions validity.
     
  18. robtex

    robtex Veteran Member

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    What is your reasoning for believing in the church than? Why accept their word over that which you could not evidence say over Islam?

    God's map? can you elaborate?
     
  19. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    History.

    A joke.... you seemed to be looking for phisical evidence that would point to a location for souls, hell.........etc.......
     
  20. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    Religion is basically about personal process. The fact that there is personal process is truth. The problem is we take our eyes off of the process and focus on things that are unnecessary to the process. If you want to return a tennis ball you focus on the ball not how the other person hit it.
     
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