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Featured The Problem With Theistic Arguments

Discussion in 'Theism' started by Hubert Farnsworth, Jun 3, 2020.

  1. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Pretty much every theistic argument I've encountered has had essentially the same structure, namely, "God is necessary to explain X." X can be a wide variety of things: the universe, the apparent design in living things, the existence of logical or mathematical truths, the existence of moral truths, the existence of beauty, the existence of love, the apparent "fine-tuning" of the universe, etc. But I don't find any form of this argument to be convincing, because I don't see any reason why any of these things need to be explained at all. After all, theists accept God as a being whose existence needs no explanation. If you are attempting to explain the existence of something with a being whose existence is by definition unexplainable, then you've arrived back at the same problem you were trying to solve in the first place. There is no reason to assert the existence of an unexplained god to explain anything. It's just as logical to assume the thing you were trying to explain with a god needs no explanation at all.
     
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  2. The Hammer

    The Hammer Virtue, Piety, Study
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    Who says the Gods 1) Need explaining. And 2) Need to follow any sort of Logic?
     
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  3. Link

    Link Well-Known Member

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    You don't see doesn't mean you shouldn't see, it maybe because you are blind to perceiving of it properly. A choice you make to not apply reason and rationality properly but cling to irrational doubt and conjecture and argue by what is known to be irrational even to you.
     
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  4. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Who says anything needs explaining?
     
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  5. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member
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    Then, of course, there is the other side of the spectrum :D
     
  6. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    What does that mean?
     
  7. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member
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    Your post is the opposite side of the spectrum... "There is no reason to assert the existence of an unexplained god to explain anything. It's just as logical to assume the thing you were trying to explain with a god needs no explanation at all."

    it's the same thing over and over again. And yet, you try to explain what we see by asserting the existence of something that you don't know existed at all at the moment of creation and then, somehow, asserting that no God existed to make that happen.
     
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  8. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Huh? I don't assert no god. I don't know whether gods exist or not. But I see no reason for a god to explain things when there is no explanation for the god. An unexplained god solves nothing, so why not just believe in an unexplained universe?
     
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  9. Samantha Rinne

    Samantha Rinne Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist

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    You assert that God is unexplained, but you have no proof of this.

    What? You use that copout all the time. "Where's your proof of..."

    Though actually, theologians do have explanations for the nature of God.

    From this we know that there is a God the Father, who makes all things that we can see and that we can't.

    We know that Jesus is one being with God, and made of the same substance. We hear that God is Light (and apparently Love, and also Kingdom Hearts is Light... maybe). We know that Jesus is eternally begotten. This is a strange phrase because to be begotten means to be born, but to be eternal means a being or process has no beginning and no end. That is to say, Jesus was NOT born once at 6 B.C. but is ALWAYS being born and reborn. Begotten not made, means that Jesus is God, not a creation of God at some point. God is eternal, Jesus is eternal. Through Jesus all things were made, as Jesus is part of the Trinity, like God. He also came from Heaven by the power of the Holy Spirit. He lived, died, and rose again. And at some point he's coming back to judge the living and the dead.

    We then are told that God and Jesus sent the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit and God sent Jesus earlier through incarnation. And both God and Jesus made all things.

    Oh yes, it's explained. It just makes the same sort of sense as this.

    Gunnerkrigg Court - By Tom Siddell
     
  10. viole

    viole Metaphysical Naturalist
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    From the point of view of hallucinating people, everybody else is blind. Therefore, the argument that atheists simply do not have some vision power that theists have, leads nowhere.

    Wait, have you also seen Superman just flying by right now? :)

    Ciao

    - viole
     
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  11. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member
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    Good question but I think it is in the nature of man to explain the universe. Certainly scientists are trying to figure it out.

    In the Christian camp, we just believe that creation is an artwork of a Creator.
     
  12. atanu

    atanu Member
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    I have put in one crucial item that you missed. It is shown in red fonts above. Now, tell us what you find unconvincing? Do you find 'existence of you' convincingly explainable by any of your belief systems?
     
  13. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Camp?
     
  14. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member
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    LOL - just a colloquialism - vs. Jewish Camp, Hindu Camp (belief system)
     
  15. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    I would offer....the simple regression
    Someone had to be First

    and the explanation we shall not have as we are breathing.....
    HOW did He bring to declaration......

    I AM!

    which is the ONLY true mystery
     
  16. atanu

    atanu Member
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    Haha.I thought God has started camps to induce divide and rule.:)
     
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  17. Thief

    Thief Rogue Theologian

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    referring to the tribes following Moses?
     
  18. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough. I don't see why the universe needs an explanation.
     
  19. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member
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    inquiring minds want to know :D
     
  20. Hubert Farnsworth

    Hubert Farnsworth Well-Known Member

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    What makes you think that there must be an explanation for the universe?
     
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