The problem with 'revelation' as authority

[Saint Frankenstein]

Okay then don’t believe it, go ahead and miss out on the Will of God just because you want your own personal message... God does not care if you reject His Messengers because God is fully self-sufficient, far above the need for any of His creatures, or their belief in Him or His Messengers.

You can also turn that around and say that it's just returning the favor to a deity that views you as unworthy of its time or presence and wants to play favorites. You ignore me, I ignore you. If the message is so important, then it could at least respect me enough to drop me a line and not have to depend on hearsay from some cult leader, guru, "prophet" or what have you. Apparently this message isn't all that important and this deity does not really care since there's so many "holy" men all claiming a direct line to this entity but saying different things. The one you happen to believe is really a matter of taste and/or familial/social happenstance.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can also turn that around and say that it's just returning the favor to a deity that views you as unworthy of its time or presence and wants to play favorites. You ignore me, I ignore you.

God is not ignoring anyone just because He does not speak to them directly. God has always revealed messages to chosen Messengers because there can be no direct intercourse between God and His creatures. Messengers of God are not ordinary men, they are made from the substance of God Himself and that is why they can mediate between God and man.

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself................ The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

If the message is so important, then it could at least respect me enough to drop me a line and not have to depend on hearsay from some cult leader, guru, "prophet" or what have you. Apparently this message isn't all that important and this deity does not really care since there's so many "holy" men all claiming a direct line to this entity but saying different things. The one you happen to believe is really a matter of taste and/or familial/social happenstance.

God is not a mailman who drops people a line. It is because God’s message is so important that God selects a Messenger who is capable and worthy of delivering it. The Messenger is a protected Source because He is not an ordinary man.

The fact that many men claim to be holy men does not prove that there are no True Messengers of God. The way to determine if they were from God is to examine their life and their character, the history of their Cause and their scriptures. These are evidence of God’s mercy unto men. God does not task anyone beyond their power, expecting anyone to believe that which has no good evidence.

 

[Samantha Rinne]

God is not ignoring anyone just because He does not speak to them directly. God has always revealed messages to chosen Messengers because there can be no direct intercourse between God and His creatures. Messengers of God are not ordinary men, they are made from the substance of God Himself and that is why they can mediate between God and man.

God is not a mailman who drops people a line. It is because God’s message is so important that God selects a Messenger who is capable and worthy of delivering it. The Messenger is a protected Source because He is not an ordinary man.

The fact that many men claim to be holy men does not prove that there are no True Messengers of God. The way to determine if they were from God is to examine their life and their character, the history of their Cause and their scriptures. These are evidence of God’s mercy unto men. God does not task anyone beyond their power, expecting anyone to believe that which has no good evidence.

This is a misunderstanding of the gospel.

The Heavenly Veil Torn: Cosmic Symbolism in the Gospel of Mark

In Jewish life, there are about 10 or so barriers, concerning the Temple:
1. The barrier between the outside world and Israel
2. The barrier between the wall of the city of Jerusalem
3. The barrier to the wall of the Temple. This represents the barrier between Jews and Gentiles
4. Then the have the women's court. The wall separates men from women.
5. Then they have an altar, and the court of priests. The sanctuary, priests can enter.
6. Finally inside the sanctuary is the Holy of Holies, where a curtain leds to a small room where the high priest talks to God.

I may have missed some.

When Jesus died, the Temple veil was torn off. Jesus's death wasn't just an atonement for sin, it was an event that let us know we don't need these "bridges" to the divine anymore, we can talk to God ourselves.

 

[Truthseeker]

When Jesus died, the Temple veil was torn off. Jesus's death wasn't just an atonement for sin, it was an event that let us know we don't need these "bridges" to the divine anymore, we can talk to God ourselves.

Sure we talk or pray to God, but He doesn't talk back.

 

[Trailblazer]

When Jesus died, the Temple veil was torn off. Jesus's death wasn't just an atonement for sin, it was an event that let us know we don't need these "bridges" to the divine anymore, we can talk to God ourselves.

According to my beliefs, there can be no direct intercourse between God and man, which means we will always need bridges to God. Jesus was a bridge to God.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

We can talk to God and God hears us, but God does not communicate to us the way God communicated to Jesus. God does not reveal a message directly to anyone except His chosen Messengers. The Essence of God is unknowable and will forever remain so. All we can know are the Attributes of God and the Will of God from what the Messengers of God reveal.

“To every discerning and illumined heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. “No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving.” 1 No tie of direct intercourse can possibly bind Him to His creatures. He standeth exalted beyond and above all separation and union, all proximity and remoteness. No sign can indicate His presence or His absence; inasmuch as by a word of His command all that are in heaven and on earth have come to exist, and by His wish, which is the Primal Will itself, all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the realm of being, the world of the visible.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, p. 98

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

God is not ignoring anyone just because He does not speak to them directly. God has always revealed messages to chosen Messengers because there can be no direct intercourse between God and His creatures. Messengers of God are not ordinary men, they are made from the substance of God Himself and that is why they can mediate between God and man.

“And since there can be no tie of direct intercourse to bind the one true God with His creation, and no resemblance whatever can exist between the transient and the Eternal, the contingent and the Absolute, He hath ordained that in every age and dispensation a pure and stainless Soul be made manifest in the kingdoms of earth and heaven. Unto this subtle, this mysterious and ethereal Being He hath assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. He hath, moreover, conferred upon Him a double station. The first station, which is related to His innermost reality, representeth Him as One Whose voice is the voice of God Himself................ The second station is the human station, exemplified by the following verses: “I am but a man like you.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 66-67

God is not a mailman who drops people a line. It is because God’s message is so important that God selects a Messenger who is capable and worthy of delivering it. The Messenger is a protected Source because He is not an ordinary man.

The fact that many men claim to be holy men does not prove that there are no True Messengers of God. The way to determine if they were from God is to examine their life and their character, the history of their Cause and their scriptures. These are evidence of God’s mercy unto men. God does not task anyone beyond their power, expecting anyone to believe that which has no good evidence.

That's nice for you but I need no middle men to commune with the Divine.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's nice for you but I need no middle men to commune with the Divine.

I was not saying that you cannot communicate to God. I talk to God all the time.
I was saying that I do not believe that God communicates back and forth to ordinary humans, revealing messages to them.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I was not saying that you cannot communicate to God. I talk to God all the time.
I was saying that I do not believe that God communicates back and forth to ordinary humans, revealing messages to them.

I know what you're saying. I'm saying that I think deities do communicate to "ordinary" humans.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

When someone claimed to speak in the name of God, Jehovah, (Yahweh) those who did so wrongly were truly punished. As it happens to be, exactly this case came to be at the hand of Korah and those who followed him:

Numbers 16:1-3 16 And Ko′rah the son of Iz′har, the son of Ko′hath, the son of Le′vi, proceeded to get up, together with Da′than and A‧bi′ram the sons of E‧li′ab, and On the son of Pe′leth, the sons of Reu′ben. 2 And they proceeded to rise up before Moses, they and two hundred and fifty men of the sons of Israel, chieftains of the assembly, summoned ones of the meeting, men of fame. 3 So they congregated themselves against Moses and Aaron and said to them: . . .​

As became obvious, God demonstrated very clearly why they had to take the word of Moses for him being God's spokesman.

Numbers 16:4-7 4 When Moses got to hear it he at once fell upon his face. 5 Then he spoke to Ko′rah and to his entire assembly, saying: “In the morning Jehovah will make known who belongs to him and who is holy and who must come near to him, and whoever he may choose will come near to him. 6 Do this: Take fire holders for yourselves, Ko′rah and his entire assembly, 7 and put fire in them and place incense upon them before Jehovah tomorrow, and it must occur that the man whom Jehovah will choose, he is the holy one. That is enough of YOU, YOU sons of Le′vi!”​

The result:

Numbers 16:24-27 . . .around the tabernacles of Ko′rah, Da′than and A‧bi′ram!’” 25 After that Moses got up and went to Da′than and A‧bi′ram, and the older men of Israel went with him. 26 Then he spoke to the assembly, saying: “Turn aside, please, from before the tents of these wicked men and do not touch anything that belongs to them, that YOU may not be swept away in all their sin.” 27 Immediately they got away from before the tabernacle of Ko′rah, Da′than and A‧bi′ram, from every side, and Da′than and A‧bi′ram came out, taking their stand at the entrance of their tents, together with their wives, and their sons and their little ones.

Numbers 16:31-35 31 And it came about that as soon as he had finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under them began to be split apart. 32 And the earth proceeded to open its mouth and to swallow up them and their households and all humankind that belonged to Ko′rah and all the goods. 33 So down they went, and all who belonged to them, alive into She′ol, and the earth went covering them over, so that they perished from the midst of the congregation. 34 And all the Israelites who were round about them fled at the screaming of them, for they began to say: “We are afraid that the earth may swallow us up!” 35 And a fire came out from Jehovah and proceeded to consume the two hundred and fifty men offering the incense.​

So, do you think the case was made as to having to listen to the voice of Moses?!

​

Now then, just to set the stage: there are at minimum a couple of million human beings in this scene, with a lot going on all over the place (in other words, completely chaotic and terrifying) -- and yet you suspect that there was somebody able to watch over all of this and record it all verbatim?

Oh, my, what a way to do revelation!

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I have given a lot of thought to this because I have heard this argument from Paine many times from atheists on other forums who are averse to the idea of Messengers of God. The psychology underlying this kind of thinking is obvious. I consider it the argument of a petulant child who thinks he is entitled to get a direct revelation from God just because he wants one.

I see no reason why God should reveal a whole religion to everyone on earth. This is completely unnecessary and illogical, when God can reveal it to one Messenger/Prophet and others can read what He wrote. Of course God can reveal whatever He wants to whomever He wants, but God is under no obligation send personal messages to everyone on earth. One reason God does not do so is because not everyone is deserving of a message from God. They have to be worthy and the way they prove their worthiness is to use their own innate intelligence to determine if God exists.

“— after this, it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner;”

Okay then don’t believe it, go ahead and miss out on the Will of God just because you want your own personal message... God does not care if you reject His Messengers because God is fully self-sufficient, far above the need for any of His creatures, or their belief in Him or His Messengers.

There is so much circularity and incoherence in your argument, I barely know where to start. But let's begin with your "petulant child." So, one day, your brother says to you, "mom says I'm the good one, and you're naughty, so I'm her favourite." Well, you weren't around when mom said that -- maybe you were at the mall with friends -- but what makes you think you are entitled to have heard it anyway? So, by your argument, you pretty much have to accept that it is true. After all, you have no reason to think that you brother lied, and certainly would accuse your mom of such a thing!

Much more important to me, however, is your second assertion -- that God is only obligated to tell one person what's required, and everybody else should just believe what he says. But that assumes -- first and foremost -- something that we definitively know about human communication -- THAT IT IS NEVER PERFECT AND IN FACT IMMENSELY PRONE TO ERROR, MISTRANLATION AND MISUNDERSTANDING. Of course, it is always possible that God is naïve about such things, and doesn't know that -- but is that something you really want to assert about God?

And what evidence do I have? Why, nothing other than the excessively simple fact that this "message of God" has been so badly misunderstood that there are 38,000 Christian sects among the major denominations, and similar numbers in every other religion. Which means, with perfect surety -- IT DIDN'T WORK!

Now, if you want to stick to your argument, then you necessarily label God a failure. I'd take a pause before you do that, however.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Revelation, when applied to religion, means something communicated immediately from God to man.

No one will deny or dispute the power of the Almighty to make such a communication, if he pleases. But admitting, for the sake of a case, that something has been revealed to a certain person, and not revealed to any other person, it is revelation to that person only. When he tells it to a second person, a second to a third, a third to a fourth, and so on, it ceases to be a revelation to all those persons. It is revelation to the first person only, and hearsay to every other, and consequently they are not obliged to believe it.

It is a contradiction in terms and ideas, to call anything a revelation that comes to us at second-hand, either verbally or in writing. Revelation is necessarily limited to the first communication — after this, it is only an account of something which that person says was a revelation made to him; and though he may find himself obliged to believe it, it cannot be incumbent on me to believe it in the same manner; for it was not a revelation made to me, and I have only his word for it that it was made to him.

When Moses told the children of Israel that he received the two tables of the commandments from the hands of God, they were not obliged to believe him, because they had no other authority for it than his telling them so; and I have no other authority for it than some historian telling me so. The commandments carry no internal evidence of divinity with them; they contain some good moral precepts, such as any man qualified to be a lawgiver, or a legislator, could produce himself, without having recourse to supernatural intervention.- Thomas Paine, Age of Reason Part 1/Section 1

I've often wondered how one should answer Paine on his objection to accepting revelation, or if monotheists have given much thought to his view?

I would answer, have the truth revealed within yourself.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know what you're saying. I'm saying that I think deities do communicate to "ordinary" humans.

You said "deities." Do you believe that there is more than one deity? How do they/it communicate to ordinary humans? How can you prove that?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You said "deities." Do you believe that there is more than one deity? How do they/it communicate to ordinary humans? How can you prove that?

Yes, I believe in more than one deity. I guess you can define my beliefs as a mixture of Luciferianism, Hellenic polytheism and Hindu Shaktism. They communicate in a large variety of ways. Dreams, visions, insights, hearing "voices", possession, omens (like certain animals appearing), etc. You can prove it as much as anyone else can prove any other spiritual claims.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is so much circularity and incoherence in your argument, I barely know where to start. But let's begin with your "petulant child." So, one day, your brother says to you, "mom says I'm the good one, and you're naughty, so I'm her favourite." Well, you weren't around when mom said that -- maybe you were at the mall with friends -- but what makes you think you are entitled to have heard it anyway? So, by your argument, you pretty much have to accept that it is true. After all, you have no reason to think that you brother lied, and certainly would accuse your mom of such a thing!

That is a straw man because I never said that you have to believe in the Messenger of God, and in fact I said the opposite. I said you will miss out on the Will of God but that God does not care because God does not need your belief.

Much more important to me, however, is your second assertion -- that God is only obligated to tell one person what's required, and everybody else should just believe what he says. But that assumes -- first and foremost -- something that we definitively know about human communication -- THAT IT IS NEVER PERFECT AND IN FACT IMMENSELY PRONE TO ERROR, MISTRANLATION AND MISUNDERSTANDING. Of course, it is always possible that God is naïve about such things, and doesn't know that -- but is that something you really want to assert about God?

I said that God is under no obligation send personal messages to everyone on earth because logically speaking, an omnipotent God is under no obligation to do anything, but I never said that everybody else should just believe what a Messenger says.

You are certainly correct about human communication, that it is never perfect and prone to error, mistranslation and misunderstanding. That is one reason WHY God does not communicate directly to ordinary humans. What you might not realize is that Messengers of God are not ordinary human beings like you and me. A Messenger of God is a subtle, mysterious and ethereal Being that has been assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. His body is human but His Soul was not conceived at conception like ours, but was rather pre-existent. In that preexistence His Soul was given the capacity to receive direct revelations from God. Although the Messenger had to translate that Revelation into a form we could understand, His Words are endowed with an invisible spiritual force.

And what evidence do I have? Why, nothing other than the excessively simple fact that this "message of God" has been so badly misunderstood that there are 38,000 Christian sects among the major denominations, and similar numbers in every other religion. Which means, with perfect surety -- IT DIDN'T WORK!

The Bible worked to get people to believe in God, but in many ways it has caused more harm than good, since the Christians have misconstrued most of the NT. The Jews do not understand their scriptures either. Both Christians and Jews partially understand their scriptures, but Christians in particular follow the doctrines of the Church rather than what Jesus said in the gospels. Of course the entire Bible is an unmapped swamp in the sense that nobody could ever understand it, and there are so many inconsistencies. Why God inspired such a Book is beyond me, but there is a New Revelation from God now so it is not necessary to read the Bible to get Truth from God.

It is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization to assume that what happened with all the Christian sects has to repeat itself again in this new age of mankind. History has not and will not ever repeat itself because this is a new age of mankind and we now have scriptures that were written by the Messenger in His Own Pen and he did not speak in parables; His scriptures are straightforward and easy to understand.

Now, if you want to stick to your argument, then you necessarily label God a failure. I'd take a pause before you do that, however.

God is not a failure because about 93% of people in the world believe in God and 84 percent of the world population has a faith, meaning that they believe in one of God’s Messengers. That means that about 9% of the world population believes in God for reasons other than a Messenger. Some of them are deists.

God is not a failure just because of the religion of Christianity. Humans are the ones who created that religion, not God, and they really messed up. God allowed it to happen because humans have free will, but now God has sent a New Messenger to clean up the mess the Christians made. However, the Christians do not like the New Messenger God sent because they are attached to Jesus and their religious traditions; but again, that is not God’s fault because everyone has free will. God will just sit back and wait until sometime in the future when the adherents to the older religions accept His New Messenger. In the meantime those believers are living according to a Book that is outdated, a Book that had a time-date stamp. Nothing is really going to change in the world until they relinquish their old Books, because they have no solutions to the world’s problems, Those solutions are in the New Books that were revealed by the New Messenger.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

since the Christians have misconstrued most of the NT. The Jews do not understand their scriptures either.

Not agreeing with you and refusing to join your sect doesn't mean they don't understand their own religion's writings. It's very rude to say that. Actually, much of that post was offensive. Good grief.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I believe in more than one deity. I guess you can define my beliefs as a mixture of Luciferianism, Hellenic polytheism and Hindu Shaktism. They communicate in a large variety of ways. Dreams, visions, insights, hearing "voices", possession, omens (like certain animals appearing), etc. You can prove it as much as anyone else can prove any other spiritual claims.

Okay, thanks for explaining that. I have always believed in One God since I started believing in God at age 17. Before that, I did not believe in anything that I can recall.

Although I do not think the Creator God communicates full revelations directly to any humans except His chosen Messengers who are really God-men, I do believe that God might communicate to others through dreams, visions and insights that we get. I also believe that Spirits can communicate from the other side of the veil. I am pretty open-minded about these things.

There is a lot of evidence that indicates that Messengers receive communication from God, but there is no proof. It there was proof, religion would be a fact and not a belief.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not agreeing with you and refusing to join your sect doesn't mean they don't understand their own religion's writings. It's very rude to say that. Actually, much of that post was offensive. Good grief.

I said “Both Christians and Jews partially understand their scriptures, but Christians in particular follow the doctrines of the Church rather than what Jesus said in the gospels.”

I did not say that Jews and Christians misconstrued all of their scriptures, but they misconstrued certain very important things. For example, most Christians believe that Jesus was God in the flesh but Jesus disclaimed being God. Christians believe that the same body of Jesus is going to return but Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

Jews understand most of their scriptures but they did not understand them completely because they rejected Jesus who was prophesied in their scriptures. This is not small potatoes since Jesus was the Savior and a very important Messenger of God! For Jews to say that Jesus was not even a prophet of God is a travesty.

Also, Jews, like Christians, believe that their Messiah will appear a certain way and do certain very specific things and otherwise He cannot be the Messiah. They believe they are the chosen ones and that the Messiah is coming to redeem them, but this is not the primary purpose of the Messiah according to scriptures. Jews misinterpreted their scriptures so they missed both Jesus and Muhammad who were legitimate Messengers of God. They believe that Moses was the greatest and last prophet that will ever come to earth. This is wrong.

Let’s just put it this way, if Jews are right then Christians are wrong, and vice versa. They cannot both be right about their scriptures, so what does that tell you, logically speaking?

Leave my religion out of this. BOTH Jews and Christians were wrong long before my religion was ever established. They were wrong when they rejected the Messengers of God that came after the ones they believe in.

Does it make sense to you that only Moses or only Jesus are legitimate Messengers of God and that 22% of the world population who are Muslims are all wrong? Mind you, Muslims recognize the legitimacy of both Jesus and Moses.... hmmmmmm....

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I said “Both Christians and Jews partially understand their scriptures, but Christians in particular follow the doctrines of the Church rather than what Jesus said in the gospels.”

I did not say that Jews and Christians misconstrued all of their scriptures, but they misconstrued certain very important things. For example, most Christians believe that Jesus was God in the flesh but Jesus disclaimed being God. Christians believe that the same body of Jesus is going to return but Jesus said His work was finished here and He was no more in the world.

Jews understand most of their scriptures but they did not understand them completely because they rejected Jesus who was prophesied in their scriptures. This is not small potatoes since Jesus was the Savior and a very important Messenger of God! For Jews to say that Jesus was not even a prophet of God is a travesty.

Also, Jews, like Christians, believe that their Messiah will appear a certain way and do certain very specific things and otherwise He cannot be the Messiah. They believe they are the chosen ones and that the Messiah is coming to redeem them, but this is not the primary purpose of the Messiah according to scriptures. Jews misinterpreted their scriptures so they missed both Jesus and Muhammad who were legitimate Messengers of God. They believe that Moses was the greatest and last prophet that will ever come to earth. This is wrong.

Let’s just put it this way, if Jews are right then Christians are wrong, and vice versa. They cannot both be right about their scriptures, so what does that tell you, logically speaking?

Leave my religion out of this. BOTH Jews and Christians were wrong long before my religion was ever established. They were wrong when they rejected the Messengers of God that came after the ones they believe in.

Does it make sense to you that only Moses or only Jesus are legitimate Messengers of God and that 22% of the world population who are Muslims are all wrong? Mind you, Muslims recognize the legitimacy of both Jesus and Moses.... hmmmmmm....

I have no idea why you are ranting to me as I don't believe in any of this. I was simply saying that it is very rude to say that Jews, Christians and so on don't understand their own scriptures and religion's because they don't accept the claims of some cult leader who came long after the fact.

Jews had and have every right to reject Jesus because he failed to fulfill their prior expectations for a messiah. His movement was just another failed Jewish messianiac movement that would've died with all the rest if some people didn't claim that he came back to life and people believed it (who knows what was going on there, but I am positive it had nothing to do with corpses coming back to life). It was a total fluke of history that Christianity was successful. Christians have never really gotten over that the Jews reject Jesus as a failure and have been insulting, haranguing and terrorizing them over it ever since. It hurts their egos to know that their idol was rejected by his very people and that they don't buy their flimsy out of context interpretations of their scriptures. I still see various anti-Semitic quacks, cranks, kooks, lunatics and frauds claiming to know the Jewish scriptures better than centuries of Jewish sages and insulting the Jews for dismissing their wild-eyed claims (which usually have something to do with them promoting their favorite cult leader or even promoting themselves as messiah and savior). You see it a lot on this forum, along with angry declarations of Jews being "children of the devil". The patience of the Jews amazes me, honestly.

In the same vein, Christians are entitled to reject Muslim claims of Muhammad being prophesied in Christian scriptures, which are based on similarly tortured and fantastical readings of out of context verses.

Same goes for Muslims and their rejection of Bahá'u'lláh.

Hindus, Buddhists and Zoroastrians can also be forgiven for dismissing the claims of those, such as Baha'is, that declare their traditions superceded and obsolete, while claiming to know their writings better than themselves and telling them whst their religions "really" mean.

Basically, I'm saying that people don't like it when you tell them that their religion is "outdated", "obsolete", "superceded" or whatever and that they should give up their millennia-old traditions to follow some obscure cult. They also don't like it when you tell them they have their interpretations of their own texts all wrong and you know better, even more than their best sages and experts over the centuries. They have every right to reject that pompous and rude behavior and move on.

Such behavior seems to be common among Baha'is and your default method of evangelizing. It doesn't work and only seems to be making people angry and offended. It's very arrogant. I wish you and your fellow Baha'is would see that.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have no idea why you are ranting to me as I don't believe in any of this. I was simply saying that it is very rude to say that Jews, Christians and so on don't understand their own scriptures and religion's because they don't accept the claims of some cult leader who came long after the fact.

After what fact? It is not rude. I am just being honest about what I believe. What I say about their religions is nothing compared to what they say about my religion. You just have not seen it on this forum because that is against the forum rules.

Jews had and have every right to reject Jesus because he failed to fulfill their prior expectations for a messiah. His movement was just another failed Jewish messianiac movement that would've died with all the rest if some people didn't claim that he came back to life and people believed it (who knows what was going on there, but I am positive it had nothing to do with corpses coming back to life). It was a total fluke of history that Christianity was successful.

Jews had a right to reject Jesus and they did so for the same reason they rejected Muhammad and Baha’u’llah. Because they did not understand the prophecies in their scriptures they did not realize that Jesus did fulfill some of the prophecies... For certain, Jesus was not the Messiah that Jews were expecting because Jesus did not fulfill all the prophecies, but Jesus was a Messenger of God/Prophet nevertheless. Jesus was sent by God, so when Jews rejected Jesus they rejected God.

Christians have never really gotten over that the Jews reject Jesus as a failure and have been insulting, haranguing and terrorizing them over it ever since. It hurts their egos to know that their idol was rejected by his very people and that they don't buy their flimsy out of context interpretations of their scriptures. I still see various anti-Semitic quacks, cranks, kooks, lunatics and frauds claiming to know the Jewish scriptures better than centuries of Jewish sages and insulting the Jews for dismissing their wild-eyed claims (which usually have something to do with them promoting their favorite cult leader or even promoting themselves as messiah and savior). You see it a lot on this forum, along with angry declarations of Jews being "children of the devil". The patience of the Jews amazes me, honestly.

You are preaching to the choir. One reason Jews of today do not recognize Jesus is because Christians insist Jesus is the King Messiah forever, the Messiah the Jews have been waiting for, and Jesus never was that Messiah and never will be. So the Jews have that right.

The reason that Jews rejected Jesus as a Messenger of God/Prophet was not because of the resurrection claims; it is mostly because of how they interpret scriptures. On another forum, there is a thread that has been going for eight years between Christians and Jews and it is over 30,000 posts long... It is ALL about scriptural interpretations, Jews vs. Christians... will it ever end?

In the same vein, Christians are entitled to reject Muslim claims of Muhammad being prophesied in Christian scriptures, which are based on similarly tortured and fantastical readings of out of context verses.

The reason that Jews reject Muhammad is because of how they interpret their Torah/Tanakh scriptures so they believe that no Prophet will ever come after Moses.

The reason that Christians reject Muhammad is because of how they interpret their New Testament scriptures so they believe that Jesus is the Only Way -- forever.

These beliefs are mutually exclusive so both cannot be true.

Same goes for Muslims and their rejection of Bahá'u'lláh.

The reason that Muslims reject Baha’u’llah is because of how they interpret their scriptures... Do you see a pattern here?

It makes no logical sense that each one of those religions interpreted their scriptures correctly because that would mean that the other religions are incorrect. That is one reason why I am a Baha’i, because it explains all of them and makes sense of them. However, the reason I became a Baha’i in the first place was because of what Baha’u’llah wrote, since it stands on its own merit, as a separate Revelation from God.

Hindus, Buddhists and Zoroastrians can also be forgiven for dismissing the claims of those, such as Baha'is, that declare their traditions superceded and obsolete, while claiming to know their writings better than themselves and telling them what their religions "really" mean.

They can do whatever they want, and after they die they will find out if they were right or not. I am not God so I am not in the business of forgiving. Baha’is do not tell Hindus, Buddhists and Zoroastrians what their religions really mean because they do not come at Baha’is like a steam engine attacking our beliefs as Christians and some Jews do. Baha’u’llah wrote that it is incumbent upon Baha’is to refute the arguments of those that have attacked the Faith of God.

Basically, I'm saying that people don't like it when you tell them that their religion is "outdated", "obsolete", "superceded" or whatever and that they should give up their millennia-old traditions to follow some obscure cult. They also don't like it when you tell them they have their interpretations of their own texts all wrong and you know better, even more than their best sages and experts over the centuries. They have every right to reject that pompous and rude behavior and move on.

Baha’is do not tell other religions their interpretations are wrong unless they tell us that Baha’u’llah is a false prophet. In that case we are obligated to defend our Faith because they are attacking it.

How do you think Baha’is feel when they are constantly called an obscure cult? It is complete ignorance to call a widely known world religion an obscure cult just because it is relatively new.

Does anyone in these older religions even bother to think rationally? Does it not even occur to them that the Baha’i Faith could actually be true? Or, is having a religion they are most comfortable with, a religion fits their personality, the only thing that matters to them? Does it matter that there might be an Almighty God who is in charge of all this?

If the older religions were superseded by the Baha’i Faith they were superseded. What people want has nothing to do with it. God has either spoken again or not.

Such behavior seems to be common among Baha'is and your default method of evangelizing. It doesn't work and only seems to be making people angry and offended. It's very arrogant. I wish you and your fellow Baha'is would see that.

If telling the truth about our religion offends people there is nothing we can do about that except to lie or bend the truth. Some Baha’is bend the truth but I am not one of them.

An essential teaching of the Baha’i Faith is that the eternal spiritual verities are the same in all the great religions of God, but it is also a Baha’i teaching that humanity cannot survive, let alone move forward into the new age, without the new message of world unity that Baha’u’llah brought, along with His new teachings and Laws. The bulk of humanity holding onto older religions holds back the progress of humanity, even if people do not realize it.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

That is a straw man because I never said that you have to believe in the Messenger of God, and in fact I said the opposite. I said you will miss out on the Will of God but that God does not care because God does not need your belief.

I said that God is under no obligation send personal messages to everyone on earth because logically speaking, an omnipotent God is under no obligation to do anything, but I never said that everybody else should just believe what a Messenger says.

You are certainly correct about human communication, that it is never perfect and prone to error, mistranslation and misunderstanding. That is one reason WHY God does not communicate directly to ordinary humans. What you might not realize is that Messengers of God are not ordinary human beings like you and me. A Messenger of God is a subtle, mysterious and ethereal Being that has been assigned a twofold nature; the physical, pertaining to the world of matter, and the spiritual, which is born of the substance of God Himself. His body is human but His Soul was not conceived at conception like ours, but was rather pre-existent. In that preexistence His Soul was given the capacity to receive direct revelations from God. Although the Messenger had to translate that Revelation into a form we could understand, His Words are endowed with an invisible spiritual force.

The Bible worked to get people to believe in God, but in many ways it has caused more harm than good, since the Christians have misconstrued most of the NT. The Jews do not understand their scriptures either. Both Christians and Jews partially understand their scriptures, but Christians in particular follow the doctrines of the Church rather than what Jesus said in the gospels. Of course the entire Bible is an unmapped swamp in the sense that nobody could ever understand it, and there are so many inconsistencies. Why God inspired such a Book is beyond me, but there is a New Revelation from God now so it is not necessary to read the Bible to get Truth from God.

It is the Fallacy of Hasty Generalization to assume that what happened with all the Christian sects has to repeat itself again in this new age of mankind. History has not and will not ever repeat itself because this is a new age of mankind and we now have scriptures that were written by the Messenger in His Own Pen and he did not speak in parables; His scriptures are straightforward and easy to understand.

God is not a failure because about 93% of people in the world believe in God and 84 percent of the world population has a faith, meaning that they believe in one of God’s Messengers. That means that about 9% of the world population believes in God for reasons other than a Messenger. Some of them are deists.

God is not a failure just because of the religion of Christianity. Humans are the ones who created that religion, not God, and they really messed up. God allowed it to happen because humans have free will, but now God has sent a New Messenger to clean up the mess the Christians made. However, the Christians do not like the New Messenger God sent because they are attached to Jesus and their religious traditions; but again, that is not God’s fault because everyone has free will. God will just sit back and wait until sometime in the future when the adherents to the older religions accept His New Messenger. In the meantime those believers are living according to a Book that is outdated, a Book that had a time-date stamp. Nothing is really going to change in the world until they relinquish their old Books, because they have no solutions to the world’s problems, Those solutions are in the New Books that were revealed by the New Messenger.

Wow! What else can I say? And your evidence for a single, solitary word of what you write is.....????