the ''problem'' with miracles

[syo]

in orthodox christianity we believe in God's supernatural miracles. there are occasions when God intervenes. but often people rely so heavily in God's intervention that they disregard their own actions. and as a result, evil things happen because of our actions and then we blame God for not interventing. for example, slavery. people force others to become slaves, an evil action. and then we blame God for slavery??? for ''allowing'' it and not stop it miraculously??? shouldn't our OWN actions become the miracle???

 

[sun rise]

Yes I agree. Life is a miracle. Self-awareness is a miracle. No more miracles are really needed outside of the miracle of being able to help another.

 

[Valjean]

Most miracles, turning a rod into a snake, water into wine, &c, seem to involve altering the laws of Nature, yet, in ordinary life we take this stability for granted, we rely on it. We have faith that glass will remain transparent, potted plants will remain where placed and milk won't turn to gasoline. Yet we seem perfectly comfortable with a capricious chemistry and physics when speaking of matters religious.

How do people manage to keep these incompatible worlds separate without going mad? How does any religious person dare to board a plane or toss a ball to a child, knowing the engine might turn to rubber or the ball accelerate to supersonic speed?

 

[Stevicus]

in orthodox christianity we believe in God's supernatural miracles. there are occasions when God intervenes. but often people rely so heavily in God's intervention that they disregard their own actions. and as a result, evil things happen because of our actions and then we blame God for not interventing. for example, slavery. people force others to become slaves, an evil action. and then we blame God for slavery??? for ''allowing'' it and not stop it miraculously??? shouldn't our OWN actions become the miracle???

I would agree with this overall, although it seems part of the problem is that there are stories of God intervening numerous times. But then, there are many other times where God does not intervene, yet we're supposed to accept that "God moves in mysterious ways."

Evil things happen because many humans have a propensity towards evil and they commit evil deeds. But good people are often bound by God's law and severely restricted as to what they can actually do to fight evil.

I can see where some people might feel that the society around them is so heavily inundated with "evil" that they feel utterly powerless to do anything about it. People are just supposed to have faith that God will punish evildoers in the end, but even if that's true, it doesn't do much to help those who are having to endure the evil that takes place. It's easy for God to sit up there and watch everyone suffering, but for those of us down here, it's not that easy.

There were probably numerous evils which might have been prevented or lessened if God had made a few subtle manipulations or slight changes in events. For example, there were numerous assassination attempts on Hitler throughout his reign, yet he survived them all. He took it as a sign of "divine intervention," but others might just say it was "bad luck." Could God have intervened and turned the course of history, saving tens of millions of lives? Or was it all "meant to happen"? If it was "meant to happen," can God be blamed for that, since it was part of His plan all along?

 

[sun rise]

Most miracles, turning a rod into a snake, water into wine, &c, seem to involve altering the laws of Nature, yet, in ordinary life we take this stability for granted, we rely on it. We have faith that glass will remain transparent, potted plants will remain where placed and milk won't turn to gasoline. Yet we seem perfectly comfortable with a capricious chemistry and physics when speaking of matters religious.

How do people manage to keep these incompatible worlds separate without going mad? How does any religious person dare to board a plane or toss a ball to a child, knowing the engine might turn to rubber or the ball accelerate to supersonic speed?

I could ask the same question about quantum mechanics which is full of bizarre events from "spooky action at a distance", quantum fluctuations and the uncertainty principle. Given the wild and wacky world of the very small, I'm amazed that the world we live in seems so stable.

 

[Twilight Hue]

in orthodox christianity we believe in God's supernatural miracles. there are occasions when God intervenes. but often people rely so heavily in God's intervention that they disregard their own actions. and as a result, evil things happen because of our actions and then we blame God for not interventing. for example, slavery. people force others to become slaves, an evil action. and then we blame God for slavery??? for ''allowing'' it and not stop it miraculously??? shouldn't our OWN actions become the miracle???

God helps those who help themselves.

 

[Valjean]

I could ask the same question about quantum mechanics which is full of bizarre events from "spooky action at a distance", quantum fluctuations and the uncertainty principle. Given the wild and wacky world of the very small, I'm amazed that the world we live in seems so stable.

It's all in the numbers, I suspect.
Molecules are always vibrating and jumping around. If all the molecules in your bowl of corn flakes decided to make a Brownian jog to the left you'd end up with corn flakes all over the floor. But what are the odds of a trillion molecules all randomly moving in the same direction all at once?
Similarly, aggregate quantum tunneling and entanglement are predictable enough for our cell phones to work fairly reliably.

 

[Skwim]

in orthodox christianity we believe in God's supernatural miracles. there are occasions when God intervenes. but often people rely so heavily in God's intervention that they disregard their own actions. and as a result, evil things happen because of our actions and then we blame God for not interventing. for example, slavery. people force others to become slaves, an evil action. and then we blame God for slavery??? for ''allowing'' it and not stop it miraculously??? shouldn't our OWN actions become the miracle???

Err, Why not? He's the guy who condones it.

Leviticus 25:44-46
44 “About your men and women slaves: You may get men and women slaves from the other nations around you. 45 Also, you may get children as slaves if they come from the families of the foreigners living in your land. These child slaves will belong to you. 46 You may even pass these foreign slaves on to your children after you die so that they will belong to them. They will be your slaves forever. You may make slaves of these foreigners. But you must not be a cruel master over your own brothers, the Israelites.

.​

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

It's all in the numbers, I suspect.
Molecules are always vibrating and jumping around. If all the molecules in your bowl of corn flakes decided to make a Brownian jog to the left you'd end up with corn flakes all over the floor. But what are the odds of a trillion molecules all randomly moving in the same direction all at once?
Similarly, aggregate quantum tunneling and entanglement are predictable enough for our cell phones to work fairly reliably.

Of course, if a Supreme Deity (TM) CHOSE to make all of the random movements of all those particles to occur at the same time (perhaps by being balanced out by another "random" movement elsewhere in the universe, because it is an all-powerful Supreme Deity (TM) that can do anything it wants, even seemingly violating the laws of the nature as we understand them.

Of course, actually documenting such a miracle, as well as documenting a Supreme Deity (TM) that is all-powerful is not at all likely...

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Most miracles, turning a rod into a snake, water into wine, &c, seem to involve altering the laws of Nature, yet, in ordinary life we take this stability for granted, we rely on it. We have faith that glass will remain transparent, potted plants will remain where placed and milk won't turn to gasoline. Yet we seem perfectly comfortable with a capricious chemistry and physics when speaking of matters religious.

How do people manage to keep these incompatible worlds separate without going mad? How does any religious person dare to board a plane or toss a ball to a child, knowing the engine might turn to rubber or the ball accelerate to supersonic speed?

It's because people who believe in miracles also believe that God (the being who is behind the miracles) is fair and doesn't harm righteous people through supernatural means, nor does He allow Satan to do it.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

God helps those who help themselves.

I'd like to believe in those moments you cannot help yourself he creates ways which he helps you out. God has a "googleplex" of other universes and galaxies to worry about. I hardly think I'm any of significance.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

It's because people who believe in miracles also believe that God (the being who is behind the miracles) is fair and doesn't harm righteous people through supernatural means, nor does He allow Satan to do it.

Ironically in the Bible God allows Satan to harm people...(See story of Job)

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

We don't know the full context of what happened to Job. Sure, he was allowed to suffer, but hey, he has his own chapter in the Bible. How many people who have suffered over the centuries can pride themselves with having their own chapter in God's Holy Book?

 

[syo]

How do people manage to keep these incompatible worlds separate without going mad? How does any religious person dare to board a plane or toss a ball to a child, knowing the engine might turn to rubber or the ball accelerate to supersonic speed?

orthodox believe that God performs miracles on special occasions when we request for God to help us. God doesn't do miracles in random.

 

[syo]

although it seems part of the problem is that there are stories of God intervening numerous times. But then, there are many other times where God does not intervene,

God doesn't intervene to alter things that people are able to change. humans have the power to stop a murderer from commiting murders. if there are murderers, that's because humans tolerate murderers, it's not God's fault. the responsibility for murders weighs humans' shoulders.