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Featured The Problem of Morals

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Nakosis, Oct 25, 2021.

  1. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    The question of morals is pretty complex, but I believe the biggest factor involved is feelings.
    I know there are cultural factors, experiential factors, theological factors, still I think it mostly boils down to what you feel is right or wrong. These other factors contribute to what you feel is right or wrong.

    Some claim morals is not something which "science" can deal with, and I generally agree.

    Feelings are a feedback systems developed by humans through evolution. A system that has worked well enough to allow our survival still a very imprecise system. Fear, anger, love, lust etc... are triggered by a subconscious process, which is not a rational process. We feel what we feel but can't rationalize why we feel this way. We can consciously try to justify after the fact of experiencing what we feel.

    Science would be the ideal way to make choices, However, our pesky feelings get in the way.

    So, instead of increasing the likelihood of making correct choices, we rely on our feelings to make value judgements. Those values are generally not the best choices for us but the choices that will provide the desired feeling.

    We humans are addicted to our feelings however, science can not not engage with the system of morals or human values since it is a mediocre system lacking any precision.

    It's like telling a junkie that getting high is bad for them but the high is more important to the junkie than making the better choice.
     
  2. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    I seem to recall a test of moral dilemmas that involves brain scans to study the subjects. No subject was purely rational as where we map rationally in the brain. Some were purely emotional and other a combination of emotional and rational.
    That fits with what was observed over 2000+ years ago:
    "Man is the measure of all things: of the things that are, that they are, of the things that are not, that they are not." Notice measure here is about what subjectively matters as far as we can tell.
     
  3. Kooky

    Kooky Freedom from Sanity

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    Science cannot tell us to make choices because science (at least in its ideal form) is descriptive, not normative.
     
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  4. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    What in what you call science has any relevance to morality? The entire field of it.
     
  5. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Well, it can show some limitations of subjectivity.
     
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  6. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    What do you mean by this in full detail and how does it connect?
     
  7. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    I guess if you define morality as being utilitarianism, then science can help maximise decisions in this regard.

    Of course many people don't think morality should be defined by utilitarianism...
     
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  8. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    Perhaps a specific kind of utilitarianism, then it would be so. Although all of the ones I discussed with before had definitions and such that went beyond or had nothing to do with that field. But thank you, now I see one possible connection.
     
  9. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Well, it depends on your beliefs. So if you reject all forms of science, you can do so. On the other if you accept science as a limited, yet useful tool, you can learn some things about the everyday world. Note, don't confuse what is methodological naturalism with other claims made using science.
     
  10. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    And utility still has its limits.
     
  11. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Logical analysis.
     
  12. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Actually as I see it, morality has it's limit.
    It's an inferior system to science.
     
  13. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    Yeah, but "It's an inferior system to science." is not science. It is something else but not science.
     
  14. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    That's one thing. What does it have to do with the other things? For example, what does it have to do with whether or not I should help someone? Certain things happening as a result of doing or not doing something which may or may not be observed has nothing to do, as far as my knowledge goes, with whether or not it should be done.
     
  15. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    I accept it as a limited and useful tool, moreover it is extremely fun to behold.
     
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  16. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    You can go about it in two way.
    First, you can let your feelings decide which would include your level of compassion or relationship to the individual.
    The other way would be to define your goals, evaluate which actions would best benefit your goals and choose the better action based on a rational evaluation.
     
  17. Lain

    Lain An Intervallic Time Traveler

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    What you call "the other way" is in fact just moral philosophy to me, at least as I learned it. Not sure what that has to do with what is normally called science still though.
     
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  18. mikkel_the_dane

    mikkel_the_dane Shadow Wolf's Aspie sibling

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    To define goals seems to be a version of good and bad in some sense.
     
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  19. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Sure, any choice can be made by either emotional or rational methods. Other methods too. One can choose to flip a coin to make their decisions, a random system. They all accomplish the same thing, making a choice. Up to the individual what system to employ.
     
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  20. Nakosis

    Nakosis Time Efficient Lollygagger
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    Are you forced to use your feelings to make a choice?

    They are two method of making choices, that is their relationship. You can choose one or the other, right?
     
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