The Problem of "Belief"

[dingdao]

As I've said before, love it when I have to look stuff up. Thanks.

Perhaps you would understand the religion founded by Mani of Persia? "Yet another heresy" just doesn't cut it.

 

[WalterTrull]

Perhaps you would understand the religion founded by Mani of Persia? "Yet another heresy" just doesn't cut it.

Uhmm.. Did look it up. Sort of understand his claims. Don't agree with them. Not sure where you're going with this.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

Here is yet another: the fall of man culminates into the spilling of the seed (orgasm) which gives birth to Cain. Therefor Cain carries the iniquity and possess some "animal" nature which needs to be shed in order to reverse the original sin. As such animal sacrifice is eliminating all that is animal *within* such that it can be replaced with human. This requires a conscience and/or conscious will to make better decisions not rooted in materialism (tiller of the soil) but of spirit: the fat of the animal, which is the inner effort one makes to shed the animal nature from within. Again - this requires conscious will and, ultimately, recognition that one *contains* animal nature.

An interesting perspective, thanks for sharing.

I don't recognize "anti-Muslim" as anything, but I'll expound on the rant. If Muslims can not stand criticisms of their religion, yet hate the Jews, why are they doing the same things as the Jews? Such as: if you criticize our religion you are anti-Muslim / Islamophobe. Sound familiar? If you criticize our religion, you are antisemitic. Same sentiment: and I thus have little to no regard for people that choose to recognize and/or normalize such a pathetic sentiment as this.

I quite agree that Islam is open to criticism and Muslims should be ready and willing to engage in debate and discussion of Islam (without cries of Islamophobia). My point was that if you are calling this thread the problem of belief, and believe that problem to apply also to non-Abrahamic religions, I would be interested in not just an application of those ideas to Abrahamic religions, which you have done here, but also an application of those ideas to non-Abrahamic religions. If you want to limit your exposition of these ideas to Abrahamic religions, perhaps you should change the title of your thread to something along the lines of 'The Problem of "Belief" in Abrahamic religions', just for the sake of accuracy.

 

[The_Fisher_King]

WOW
Are you actually arguing for Manichaeism?

Not quite, but you aren't too far off..

 

[sooda]

Here is yet another: the fall of man culminates into the spilling of the seed (orgasm) which gives birth to Cain. Therefor Cain carries the iniquity and possess some "animal" nature which needs to be shed in order to reverse the original sin. As such animal sacrifice is eliminating all that is animal *within* such that it can be replaced with human. This requires a conscience and/or conscious will to make better decisions not rooted in materialism (tiller of the soil) but of spirit: the fat of the animal, which is the inner effort one makes to shed the animal nature from within. Again - this requires conscious will and, ultimately, recognition that one *contains* animal nature.

Over 98% of human DNA is identical to that of a chimpanzee. The animal/human sacrificing-loving interpretation of even the God of Abraham can really only be arrived at by someone looking for something to hate on.



I don't recognize "anti-Muslim" as anything, but I'll expound on the rant. If Muslims can not stand criticisms of their religion, yet hate the Jews, why are they doing the same things as the Jews? Such as: if you criticize our religion you are anti-Muslim / Islamophobe. Sound familiar? If you criticize our religion, you are antisemitic. Same sentiment: and I thus have little to no regard for people that choose to recognize and/or normalize such a pathetic sentiment as this.

Muslims are doing absolutely everything they are accusing the Jews of: it is like the Jew is the scapegoat to distract away from what the Muslims themselves are doing. This is a form of psychological projection and actually is a mental illness: just as China openly stated on the global platform, Islam is a mental illness.

I am not the one calling for endless war against people who don't "believe". If Muslims are going to kill people because they refuse to "believe" what they "believe": especially when the "belief" is absolutely and rather obviously false, there is no anti-Muslim anything possible, and any Muslim who can not stand even considering that what they "believe" is not true, is not my problem. It is theirs, just like everything else is their own problem, like imbuing man-made books and sexual degenerates as holy things.

Oh no, poor Muslims! Always persecuted!

Meanwhile 270 000 000 are dead at the hands of Muhammadans. And the stupid people *still* don't see the problem / hypocrisy.

Muslim = Jew

Both have the same false belief: that they are in possession of the perfect word of god (both Torah and Qur'an are man-made) and some male idol is their prophet and final authority on all matters, including over-riding "other" laws of "other" people's lands, such as the "disbelievers" and/or "infidels".



Christianity is a patriarchal system: you sound just as wrapped up as the Muhammad trying to suggest Islam is *not* a patriarchal system, which is obviously a ridiculous claim as it is.

The sinful practices of wicked men were the same people who wrote the Bible - essentially you are talking about the Hyksos/Canaanites/Jews. They took what they could from Egypt and made it as Jewish as they could. It started with turning an Egyptian king into a Hebrew/Jewish one, which is the central falsification in Judaism and essentially renders it, along with Islam, completely false.

Christianity is essentially a really, really watered down version of kabbalah: father/son/holy spirit is keser/chokmah/binah: the triunity at the top of the tree of life. It is crowned wisdom and understanding: truth of the way of life. Jesus represents chokmah: the son, wisdom. Indeed there is much wisdom in the teachings attributed to Jesus, but there is no wisdom in worshiping him as an idol: he was just a regular man. His "deification" is illegitimate, which is one of the things Islam actually gets correct. I agree with Islam in their rejection of Jesus (as with the Jews) and obviously the Jews likewise hate that their Jewish Messiah was made into a Greek idol. The Jew and Muslim are allied in their effort to destroy Christianity, which is why almost every single Jewish organization supports mass immigration: they want Jesus gone forever, and they are using the Muhammadans to do it.

Christianity will be gone in a few decades: wherever Islam takes its place, that place will destroy itself because Islam destroys everything it comes into contact with over time.



One would hope: but this most certainly is *not* an exaggeration when describing the early, early Jews of say circa 500 BCE. They absolutely believed this - that if a Torah were copied incorrectly, the universe would collapse because G-d made the universe with the letters and Torah. This is in the Zohar in many places and is still taught as more or less "true" but of course even modern "orthodox" Jews might not actually believe this to a paranoid delusional level as with the early Jews.

How old are you? The Hyksos weren't Jewish and they didn't make Egypt Jewish.

Cain was a farmer..

Do you know any Muslims? When someone starts pontificating as you have done, I wonder if they have ever been anywhere.

 

[dybmh]

I don't "believe" anything, because "belief" is not a virtue.

Belief is a virture. Not only that, belief is normal, natural, and part of the human brain's pattern recogntion process.

You said, "you don't believe anything". But i don't think that's true. Most respectfully, you do believe in something. You believe that your ideas have merit. You believe that your writing has value. If you didn't believe it, then you wouldn't have posted any of this.

Belief ( capital B ) has tremendous value in the proper circumstances as long as it doesn't become too extreme.

3 examples of belief as a virtue:

First, belief is a virtue as part of the scientific process. Observation, then hypothesis, then test.... Without belief, there would be no hypothesis. Also if the scientist didn't believe their research was valuable; if they didn't believe in themselves; they likely wouldn't publish the results of their research. In this way, belief is a virtue first in developing the hypothesis, and also in publishing the results.

Second, belief is a virtue for an artist in the creative process. When a poet has an idea for a new poem, the poet needs to believe in themselves; they need to decide whether or not the idea is good before they have any evidence, before they have any words on the paper, maybe even before the words have formed from the idea in their mind. Without words, without form, the new poem does not exist outside of an idea suspended in the subconscience. If the poet believes the idea might turn into to a good poem, the creative process continues. If the poet abandons belief altogether, the creative process is either brought to a halt, or there is no filter on what is good poetry or bad poetry. Also, just like the research scientist, if the poet does not believe in themselves, good poetry, important works of art, like those of Maya Angelou, would never be shared. Poetry can make changes in the world. Without virtuous Belief, these important poetic works would not reach an audience.

Third, belief is a virtue because it is the antidote for paranoia and conspiracy theories about governements, religions, and other groups whom some believe want to take over the world. If a person does not believe that the consensus opinion has value, or that conventional news outlets would report on and expose the activities of these groups in their pursuits, then that person has a bias towards fringe information sources. This bias is a big problem. Belief in consensus collective wisdom, not just in news sources, but also among neighbors, friends, and co-workers prevents the problem of idolizing fringe groups who promote unfounded conspiracy thoeries. Belief here is a virtue because, if a person believes that consensus opinion has value, then when their neighbors, friends, co-workers tell them, "the earth is round, old, and the moon landing was real", they will not get sucked into beleiving these conspiracy theories (or worse) and potentially become paranoid.

Belief is a virtue. Belief is applied pattern recogntion. And pattern recogntion is a virtue in science, art, and for thwarting conspiracy theories and paranoia. But belief can go to an extreme. Like anything; too much of anything is a bad thing. Whether or not it's bad depends on the person, and depends on their circumstances. But belief itself is a virtue as long as it is not taken to the extreme.

What are the elements that contribute to belief becoming negative in the extreme?

Top of the list: lack of education. Close second: isolation ( either indiviual isolation, or cultural isloation where a person's tribe, family, religion, nationality, discourages interactions with other tribes, families, religions, etc...) Third: desperation: lack of water, food, shelter, health care, encourages a person towards fringe beliefs and the departure of rational thinking and simple human decency.

Because belief is natural and normal as part of the human brain's pattern recogntion functions, there is a fourth factor which encourages belief with negative effects. That factor is demonization.

Sometimes, when people have their beliefs challenged vigorously, they respond by clamping down on their own beliefs in the jaws of their intellect like a pitbull on a chew toy. From a practical perspective, it's better to gently convince the dog to drop the chew toy, rather than grab it with both hands and try to wrestle the misconceptions from the dogs mouth.

In light of all this, i propose that belief is normal, natural, and is a virtue. I propose that you, 9-18-1, do believe in things, you believe that your writing has merit. I further propose that misconceptions, conspiracy theories, and paranoia are not a virtue. The antidote to these is not eliminating Belief. The anidote is eductation, exposure to diverse people and cultures, providing water, food, shelter, and health care to desperate people globally, and the cessation of demonization of people with religious beliefs.

 

[David T]

I should preface by stating I understand the religions of Christianity and Islam to be idol worship: both utilize a (dead; non-existent) male central figure that serves as a model for the citizens of an empire. In both cases each utilize a book(s) which outlines the nature/behavior of such a central figure to be imitated, emulated, regarded as the perfect "pattern of conduct" etc.

The Syriac-speaking Christians (who resided in and around the Arabian Peninsula pre-Islam) had many hymnal texts which:

i. Would later serve as the basis for the early Qur'an, and
ii. Referred to Jesus as "the praised one" and/or "mercy upon mankind"

Over time such titles in ii. gradually "migrated" and began describing the characteristics of an Arabian prophet who would only surface by the late 7th century.

To add more to the mix, such religious institutions invariably rely on Judaism as having served as the soil bed from whence to arise. Similarly, Judaism utilizes a (series of) male central figure(s) who serve(d) as role models.

And herein we arrive at the problem of "belief".

Both Judaism and Islam uniquely "believe" that they are in possession of the perfect, inimitable, unaltered, inerrant word of god. In the case of the former, some orthodox Jews believe that if ever a Torah were copied containing an error, the universe would collapse because G-d made the universe with the 22 Hebrew letters and Torah. In the case of the latter, the Qur'an is regarded by Muslims as the Highest authority on the planet which over-rides all non-Muslim nations' laws which they claim to be "man-made". In reality, both the Torah and Qur'an are man-made.

Invariably such "beliefs" still centrally reside as the thousands-year-old human conflict(s) based in the Middle East. Jews "believe" they were delivered by a Jewish Moses under guidance from the creator of the universe as they await their Messiah (rejecting Jesus), and Muslims "believe" similar of their prophet Muhammad who is similarly rejected by the Jews (and rightly so as with Jesus).

However we know that the Torah has at least 3 authors, and at least in its current form (and script) does not resemble anything that can not be explained by the handiwork of man. Similar is true for the Qur'an: it is compiled from numerous sources, many of which were in a different language (Syriac) entirely. It is certain that neither the Torah nor the Qur'an are the perfect word of god, but the Jews and Muslims "believe" such things to be true - it is the basis of their entire way of being.

Similarly, Christians "believe" in Jesus and the Gospel accounts of him. They also seem to "believe" that he was either god or in some way in perfect union with god, and sacrificed himself for the sins of all of mankind - hence derived "mercy upon mankind" which Muhammad would later seemingly usurp. The problem, simply then, is if such an event as the crucifixion and resurrection did not actually occur, Christianity is similarly false and loosely based in "belief".

It is nothing short of curious that the life and death of Jesus should imitate the behavior of the sun: being "dead" for three days beginning Dec. 21 only to rise on Dec. 25 - a special day for the Christian world if only they actually watched it happen in the sky. I still weep at the souls who don't see the connection and thus derive that Jesus is a model / idol of the sun, as were countless solar deities and/or crucified messianic missionaries that preceded him from an array of cultures.

Given all of this, and re-striking the bell of the understanding that Christianity and Islam (as well as Judaism to a certain extent) are essentially idol worshiping institutions which rely on "belief" of things that are not actually true, I derive the following:

"Belief is not a virtue."

much to the detriment of the Muhammadans who overtly call themselves "believers". The entire basis of Islam (and much of the Abrahamic world) can be dismissed based on the premise that "belief" is not a virtue, if not for the fact that both the Torah and Qur'an are man-made. One can therefrom surmise naturally that remainder of the Bible the same is true.

"Belief" has no substance: it is essentially a projection. This is how numerous denominations of idolatrous schemes can arise: each denomination projects his/her own unique "imagination" of who, for example, Jesus or who Muhammad is/was (this occurring already after "believing" they existed, which is a problem in and of itself). For example many different denominations of Christianity exist on the basis of what Jesus did and/or did not allow/accept, including things like drinking coffee/alcohol. Islam has similar problems: who was the most rightful heir after Muhammad's fall? Here we have Sunni vs. Shia, a 1400-year-old war within Islam itself. The idol worshipers fight over such things, and the many hundreds of millions are fallen.

Ultimately this "belief" and "idol worship" have been the most prime sources of human suffering and death on this planet. I predict that the greatest obstacle facing humanity is outright flatly rejecting "belief" as a basis of existence (or anything *thing* for that matter) - for it is actually the opposite; namely, illusion and without a basis in reality. "Belief" is therefor the principle conduit for outright insanity: a charge I do not withhold from institutions such as Islam (in agreement with China's recent declaration that Islam is a mental illness). Christianity is similar: though at least humanity had the decency not to make Jesus into a sexually degenerated pedophile war lord that preyed on the weak and vulnerable (women/children) as is the case with Muhammad and Islam. There are certainly varying degrees of insanity - "belief" is common throughout.

Non belief and agnosticism are identical to religious beliefs. A funny Trinity of selfs supporting intellellcualizing stupidity. It only exists in the tiniest region of the human craniumself labeled by it calling itself "higher functioning.". Zero evidence of that actually..

 

[sooda]

Belief is a virture. Not only that, belief is normal, natural, and part of the human brain's pattern recogntion process.

You said, "you don't believe anything". But i don't think that's true. Most respectfully, you do believe in something. You believe that your ideas have merit. You believe that your writing has value. If you didn't believe it, then you wouldn't have posted any of this.

Belief ( capital B ) has tremendous value in the proper circumstances as long as it doesn't become too extreme.

3 examples of belief as a virtue:

First, belief is a virtue as part of the scientific process. Observation, then hypothesis, then test.... Without belief, there would be no hypothesis. Also if the scientist didn't believe their research was valuable; if they didn't believe in themselves; they likely wouldn't publish the results of their research. In this way, belief is a virtue first in developing the hypothesis, and also in publishing the results.

Second, belief is a virtue for an artist in the creative process. When a poet has an idea for a new poem, the poet needs to believe in themselves; they need to decide whether or not the idea is good before they have any evidence, before they have any words on the paper, maybe even before the words have formed from the idea in their mind. Without words, without form, the new poem does not exist outside of an idea suspended in the subconscience. If the poet believes the idea might turn into to a good poem, the creative process continues. If the poet abandons belief altogether, the creative process is either brought to a halt, or there is no filter on what is good poetry or bad poetry. Also, just like the research scientist, if the poet does not believe in themselves, good poetry, important works of art, like those of Maya Angelou, would never be shared. Poetry can make changes in the world. Without virtuous Belief, these important poetic works would not reach an audience.

Third, belief is a virtue because it is the antidote for paranoia and conspiracy theories about governements, religions, and other groups whom some believe want to take over the world. If a person does not believe that the consensus opinion has value, or that conventional news outlets would report on and expose the activities of these groups in their pursuits, then that person has a bias towards fringe information sources. This bias is a big problem. Belief in consensus collective wisdom, not just in news sources, but also among neighbors, friends, and co-workers prevents the problem of idolizing fringe groups who promote unfounded conspiracy thoeries. Belief here is a virtue because, if a person believes that consensus opinion has value, then when their neighbors, friends, co-workers tell them, "the earth is round, old, and the moon landing was real", they will not get sucked into beleiving these conspiracy theories (or worse) and potentially become paranoid.

Belief is a virtue. Belief is applied pattern recogntion. And pattern recogntion is a virtue in science, art, and for thwarting conspiracy theories and paranoia. But belief can go to an extreme. Like anything; too much of anything is a bad thing. Whether or not it's bad depends on the person, and depends on their circumstances. But belief itself is a virtue as long as it is not taken to the extreme.

What are the elements that contribute to belief becoming negative in the extreme?

Top of the list: lack of education. Close second: isolation ( either indiviual isolation, or cultural isloation where a person's tribe, family, religion, nationality, discourages interactions with other tribes, families, religions, etc...) Third: desperation: lack of water, food, shelter, health care, encourages a person towards fringe beliefs and the departure of rational thinking and simple human decency.

Because belief is natural and normal as part of the human brain's pattern recogntion functions, there is a fourth factor which encourages belief with negative effects. That factor is demonization.

Sometimes, when people have their beliefs challenged vigorously, they respond by clamping down on their own beliefs in the jaws of their intellect like a pitbull on a chew toy. From a practical perspective, it's better to gently convince the dog to drop the chew toy, rather than grab it with both hands and try to wrestle the misconceptions from the dogs mouth.

In light of all this, i propose that belief is normal, natural, and is a virtue. I propose that you, 9-18-1, do believe in things, you believe that your writing has merit. I further propose that misconceptions, conspiracy theories, and paranoia are not a virtue. The antidote to these is not eliminating Belief. The anidote is eductation, exposure to diverse people and cultures, providing water, food, shelter, and health care to desperate people globally, and the cessation of demonization of people with religious beliefs.

Top of the list: lack of education. Close second: isolation ( either indiviual isolation, or cultural isloation where a person's tribe, family, religion, nationality, discourages interactions with other tribes, families, religions, etc...) Third: desperation: lack of water, food, shelter, health care, encourages a person towards fringe beliefs and the departure of rational thinking and simple human decency.

(I'm impressed)

 

[9-18-1]

The first half of your thesis was interesting.
If you're going to engage in a discussion or debate keep each segment simple:
Explain Galatians 3:1.
Hint: He's using a euphemism.

"This is how they behave: blame everyone else for what they are themselves guilty of." Have you been reading Roger Stone?

I don't know who Roger Stone is - never read anything from him.

What I am describing is psychological projection: when a person contains characteristics that he/she actually despises and is hostile to, and ends up projecting them outward and imbuing others as having them. I can try to give an analogy:

If you take a naked light bulb and turn it on, it gives light that is unmodified by anything beyond the characteristics of the light bulb itself. If you put a lamp shade over it, the light that passes through the shade now carries with it the characteristics of the shade when it lands on an object and illuminates it.

In the same way, when a person is full of hatred, the light of the body is tainted by this hatred and whatever one sees externally will be imbued with this same hatred. This is projection and what leads people like Muhammadans to kill others for what they themselves are guilty of.

This is how psychological projection works, and is the basis of:

i. Islam, and
ii. The "Mark of Cain"

Psychological projection and the "Mark of Cain" are one and the same thing: growing enmity and desire to spill blood. This is the animal nature as opposed to human: Cain and Abel.

"I like to test claims, so when I read Jesus' teaching about how chastity is a requirement, I actually became chaste to test it. I can report that the teaching is accurate: sexual degeneracy is what "kills" the brain and turns people into animals." This only works over a short period of time. Repressing sexual desires eventually leads to it spilling over into every waking moment of your consciousness. The results can be worse then letting your instincts run amuck. Actually going overboard in the opposite direction, tantra, leads to 'so you're gorgeous, I don't think you can keep up. Something the Pope should consider.

This is true - when the sexual energy is preserved and not exhausted via sexual activity it needs a new outlet for expression.

This is where art, music, literature, sport etc. get their life.

If sexual repression builds as a result of no expression, one is likely liable to become volatile, unbalanced, easily irritated etc. inviting a whole host of problems. One of the women I knew was essentially addicted to the orgasm and would be masturbating whenever she had the chance. It has really bad effects on the brain/being - subjective reasoning and placing what one wants to be true rather than what is true.

"You can't separate motivation from religion, because religion acts as a motivating factor for many, many people." Have you ever noticed that most societies in history have had the same person as the religious and political leader? Those that haven't, have had people attempt to occupy both positions at the same time. It's easier to order people around if you can send them to Hell if they don't heel.

This is why C. J. Jung compared Hitler's rise to power with Muhammad - Muhammad's politics was his religion, and his religion was 100% political which always ended in bloodshed, even after his own death. Muhammad serves the archetypal dictator warlord that governs people with fear and deception, while projecting and blaming the other side as doing it.

This is a disaster: Muslims are genuinely suffering under their own leadership "believing" it is coming from just about everywhere else.

"I know the Torah is man-made, it carries in it some great knowledge that invariably came from the Egyptian schools." It also inherits a lot from Zoroastrianism.

Yes - I consider Zoroastrianism derivative of Egyptian schools as well.

"[T]he difference between subjective reasoning and objective reasoning..." You're mixing 2 concepts here: subjectivity and objectivity are not reasoning modes. According to Quantum Mechanics, you should question if they are valid concepts. Perhaps you were referring to inductive and deductive reasoning?

The "object" of *any* reasoning mode can be either subjective (not real) or objective (real). The reasoning "mode" can not be subjective or objective, but any reasoning requires an object: whether it is real or not is the problem, which brings us into subjectivity (placing authority over truth) and objectivity (placing truth over authority).

Islam - "belief" - authority over truth (subjective)

When a person places a subjective conclusion "the Qur'an is perfect" and only considers/allows reasoning that points in this direction, this is "subjective reasoning". It is similar / the same as a priori reasoning, which I argue is a product of subjective reasoning as above.

"However the Hebrew name for Jesus (I'd pronounce it Yahushua) implies the shin (fire) emerging inside of the Tetragrammaton:" Now we're getting interesting.

"[The] entire Russian collusion was a projection by Islam/Left because they are the ones who colluded with Russia:" You HAVE been reading Roger Stone. I knew it![/QUOTE]

Sorry - never read anything from Roger Stone.

"Here is yet another: the fall of man culminates into the spilling of the seed (orgasm) which gives birth to Cain." You lost it. Find a mate.

The first begotten of fornication always carries with/in it the iniquity of the father. This in consideration with "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation" outlines that any iniquities carried over for more than 3/4 generations will start to be "addressed" naturally "by god", which I argue comes through in the form of the ten commandments acting on the ten sephiroth on the body uniquely to whatever degree a person uniquely broke them.

For example, people who kill other people will eventually be held to account in direct proportion to their own iniquity.

This is why I caution Christians/Muslims that the testimonies they are taking in order to join Christianity / Islam are false testimonies contrary to one of these ten commandments. Once the false testimony is taken and the book/idol adopted and absorbed, these religions promote the breaking of the rest.

"This is perfectly kosher in Islam." Interesting phrase.

"Imagine a fully Islamic planet, with a natural balance of men and women, wherein the men are each entitled to four wives." As far as evolution goes, it works. Those that survive the melee culling get to mate.

I would say this is devolution, not evolution.

"She also can not refuse her husband sex if he demands it unless ill or menstruating. She also can not leave the house without permission and/or guardianship. She can not alone report a rape and expect anything to be done about it." Don't blame the whole religion for the shortcomings of Wahhabism.

Just what horse do you have your money on?

I don't gamble - neither do I pray, but do hope that humanity wakes up out of the religious idolatry that is Christianity/Islam and establishes a state somewhere devoid of religious institutions which idolize dead men.

There is only one problem this planet actually has: women. How men treat/regard women (Ish names Isha "mother of all that lives"). Though I could never prove it unless I had enough power to actually do it, I would argue (as Christopher Hitchens did) that the overall "health" of any state can be directly obtained by observing the health of the women in that state. Therefor the healthier the women, the greater the state. This applies globally: if women are destroyed, so too is the planet itself.

How old are you? The Hyksos weren't Jewish and they didn't make Egypt Jewish.

Cain was a farmer..

Do you know any Muslims? When someone starts pontificating as you have done, I wonder if they have ever been anywhere.

The Hyksos weren't Jewish at the time, but because we are going back so far we have to understand that any/all Canaanites Jews are derived therefrom - any Nomadic people who didn't have their own state.

Cain is not a real person - it is a symbol for the lower (animal) mind. Tiller of the soil is indicating one who digs from the contents of their own mind rather than sacrificing the animal mind for a higher one. This is a symbolic story and isn't talking about anything that happened literally - the same is true for the entire Torah, it is Hebrew mythology.

I know lots of people, not just Muslims - the fundamental problems are the same: "belief" in things that are simply not true. That does not make Muslims and or any others bad people, it just means they "believe" things that are not true and are thus enslaved to/by these beliefs that sometimes leads them to adopt destructive world views, such as "believer" vs. "unbeliever" or "us" vs. "them". If such division comes from anywhere, the first place is to look at "belief"-based religions such as Islam.

Unfortunately, trying to have such discussions with most "believers" just ends up triggering and exposing their own insecurity about their own "belief".

 

[9-18-1]

Belief is a virture. Not only that, belief is normal, natural, and part of the human brain's pattern recogntion process.

You said, "you don't believe anything". But i don't think that's true. Most respectfully, you do believe in something. You believe that your ideas have merit. You believe that your writing has value. If you didn't believe it, then you wouldn't have posted any of this.

If an idea has merit, it doesn't require "belief" - in fact the opposite is true. I know the Torah and Qur'an are man-made - the "merit" problem comes in when a person attempts to argue that they are the "perfect, inimitable, unaltered, inerrant" word of god. These are the ideas being passed as having merit yet rooted in "belief". "Belief" is not required to know that they are man-made, and neither does one need to "believe" they are man-made - it is possible to know they are man-made, how it all happened and why etc.requiring no "belief" whatsoever.

Belief ( capital B ) has tremendous value in the proper circumstances as long as it doesn't become too extreme.

3 examples of belief as a virtue:

Oh no, here we go...

First, belief is a virtue as part of the scientific process.

Wrong: "belief" is the *opposite* of the scientific process. "Belief" does not require (sometimes allow) a question(s) to be asked and pursued.

Observation, then hypothesis, then test....

Wrong: science *always* starts with a question. Question>>Hypothesis>>Test. Questions require a conscience to generate. No conscience = no question.

Without belief, there would be no hypothesis.

Wrong: without a question (generated by a conscience), there would be no hypothesis in the first place.

Also if the scientist didn't believe their research was valuable; if they didn't believe in themselves; they likely wouldn't publish the results of their research. In this way, belief is a virtue first in developing the hypothesis, and also in publishing the results.

There is no "belief" in science - you can not "believe" in data, either the data is true/accurate, or it is false/inaccurate. One can "believe" the data is wrong or generated by ill-intentioned people, but that is still belief: once again, "belief" is not a virtue. It is almost exclusively the limiting factor every time. Now interpreting the data is a different story but still has absolutely nothing to do with "belief" - some people will interpret based on what they want to be there (which, again, is probably influenced by a belief or predisposition) and some actually only care about what *is*).

Second, belief is a virtue for an artist in the creative process. When a poet has an idea for a new poem, the poet needs to believe in themselves; they need to decide whether or not the idea is good before they have any evidence, before they have any words on the paper, maybe even before the words have formed from the idea in their mind. Without words, without form, the new poem does not exist outside of an idea suspended in the subconscience. If the poet believes the idea might turn into to a good poem, the creative process continues. If the poet abandons belief altogether, the creative process is either brought to a halt, or there is no filter on what is good poetry or bad poetry. Also, just like the research scientist, if the poet does not believe in themselves, good poetry, important works of art, like those of Maya Angelou, would never be shared. Poetry can make changes in the world. Without virtuous Belief, these important poetic works would not reach an audience.

I'm sorry but this is nonsense to me in its entirety. When a poet/musician gets an idea, they don't need to "believe" in themselves to bring it to life. What is this "believing" in ones self? Poetry is not a science, it is a means for human expression. If someone wants to express something, they don't need to "believe" whatever it is they wish to express because, chances are, they are actually feeling/experiencing it. I carry a book with me at all times in case I experience something I want to capture as it is happening when it is fresh and accessible. How/why do you "believe" in anything when you are actually experiencing it raw? This all gets ridiculous from here and "belief" certainly has no application in such a subjective domain as art.

Third, belief is a virtue because it is the antidote for paranoia and conspiracy theories about governements, religions, and other groups whom some believe want to take over the world. If a person does not believe that the consensus opinion has value, or that conventional news outlets would report on and expose the activities of these groups in their pursuits, then that person has a bias towards fringe information sources. This bias is a big problem. Belief in consensus collective wisdom, not just in news sources, but also among neighbors, friends, and co-workers prevents the problem of idolizing fringe groups who promote unfounded conspiracy thoeries. Belief here is a virtue because, if a person believes that consensus opinion has value, then when their neighbors, friends, co-workers tell them, "the earth is round, old, and the moon landing was real", they will not get sucked into beleiving these conspiracy theories (or worse) and potentially become paranoid.

Um, most paranoia, conspiracy theories, religions etc. actively employ belief as a means to control people. You are actually advocating that the problem "belief" is actually the solution for the problems brought about on "belief". This is the precisely same completely backwards thinking of Islam: war is a means to peace. In your case, "belief" is a means to protect against institutions that exploit "belief". Do you see how stupid this is?

Does anyone else on this board *actually* think this way?

Belief is a virtue. Belief is applied pattern recogntion. And pattern recogntion is a virtue in science, art, and for thwarting conspiracy theories and paranoia. But belief can go to an extreme. Like anything; too much of anything is a bad thing. Whether or not it's bad depends on the person, and depends on their circumstances. But belief itself is a virtue as long as it is not taken to the extreme.

"Belief is applied pattern recognition" - what??? What does belief have to do with pattern recognition? Lol wow.

Pattern recognition, once again, requires (con)science - the opposite of belief. If one studies patterns, they are employing their conscience, not a "belief". You can't understand patterns by believing in them: you have to know how they are formed. For example you can't become a musician by "believing" in the scales and chords, you have to know them, understand them, practice with them etc. "Belief" is not knowledge, neither understanding, neither requires a practice to sustain. "Belief" essentially disengages the inquiring mind to the point of never questioning anything.

What are the elements that contribute to belief becoming negative in the extreme?

Top of the list: lack of education. Close second: isolation ( either indiviual isolation, or cultural isloation where a person's tribe, family, religion, nationality, discourages interactions with other tribes, families, religions, etc...) Third: desperation: lack of water, food, shelter, health care, encourages a person towards fringe beliefs and the departure of rational thinking and simple human decency.

1. Lack of education: Muslims are erroneously taught that "belief" is a virtue. The Qur'an, which is "believed" to be the perfect, inimitable, unaltered, inerrant word of god is actually man-made. 270 000 000 people are dead and more are dying as a result of this "belief" that is packaged into the institutions of Islam.
2. Isolation: Muslims divide the world between "us believers" and "them unbelievers".
3. Desperation: people are more easily controlled when desperate/in poverty. Islam exploits this just as readily as any state.

Because belief is natural and normal as part of the human brain's pattern recogntion functions, there is a fourth factor which encourages belief with negative effects. That factor is demonization.

Islam demonizes essentially every single person or group that criticizes Islam/Muhammad/Qur'an for being man-made. Why? Because it is man-made and the leaders of the ISlamic world would completely lose power if the "believing" Muslims suddenly realized that what they "believe" is actually not true. That is why people who speak out against "belief"-based institutions such as Islam are demonized - speaking the truth, which Islam absolutely hates.

Sometimes, when people have their beliefs challenged vigorously, they respond by clamping down on their own beliefs in the jaws of their intellect like a pitbull on a chew toy. From a practical perspective, it's better to gently convince the dog to drop the chew toy, rather than grab it with both hands and try to wrestle the misconceptions from the dogs mouth.

"Belief" DESERVES to be challenged vigorously - the Muhammadans who "believe" the Qur'an is the word of god, when it is not, are raping / killing people based on what they are reading as "the perfect word of god". If Muslims did not erroneously "believe" that the Qur'an is anything but a man-made book, these killings, raping, and essentially what is the entire global conflict wouldn't exist. Yet Muslims ***** and complain that their "beliefs" should be respected?

This is why China declared Islam a mental illness - it is one. That doesn't mean all Muslims are bad people - in fact most are good, and some are amazing. However, this does not absolve Islam of criticism.

In light of all this, i propose that belief is normal, natural, and is a virtue. I propose that you, 9-18-1, do believe in things, you believe that your writing has merit. I further propose that misconceptions, conspiracy theories, and paranoia are not a virtue. The antidote to these is not eliminating Belief. The anidote is eductation, exposure to diverse people and cultures, providing water, food, shelter, and health care to desperate people globally, and the cessation of demonization of people with religious beliefs.

I'm sorry but all you have really done is highlight how "belief" is not a virtue. What is particularly clear is "belief" is being treated as a solution when in reality it is the very problem in the first place. In fact this is the *exact* same problem Islam has: Muslims "believe" Islam is the solution, but it is actually the problem. This is why hundreds of millions of people are dead, women are enslaved, and why Islam has been waging war against the entire non-Muslim world for 1400 years.

Once again: belief is absolutely not a virtue, it is a vice.

 

[dybmh]

@9-18-1 ,

You missed the point. Post 50... Lots of words, yet lacks precision. Seems to be a pattern.

 

[sooda]

If an idea has merit, it doesn't require "belief" - in fact the opposite is true. I know the Torah and Qur'an are man-made - the "merit" problem comes in when a person attempts to argue that they are the "perfect, inimitable, unaltered, inerrant" word of god. These are the ideas being passed as having merit yet rooted in "belief". "Belief" is not required to know that they are man-made, and neither does one need to "believe" they are man-made - it is possible to know they are man-made, how it all happened and why etc.requiring no "belief" whatsoever.



Oh no, here we go...


Wrong: "belief" is the *opposite* of the scientific process. "Belief" does not require (sometimes allow) a question(s) to be asked and pursued.

Wrong: science *always* starts with a question. Question>>Hypothesis>>Test. Questions require a conscience to generate. No conscience = no question.

Wrong: without a question (generated by a conscience), there would be no hypothesis in the first place.


There is no "belief" in science - you can not "believe" in data, either the data is true/accurate, or it is false/inaccurate. One can "believe" the data is wrong or generated by ill-intentioned people, but that is still belief: once again, "belief" is not a virtue. It is almost exclusively the limiting factor every time. Now interpreting the data is a different story but still has absolutely nothing to do with "belief" - some people will interpret based on what they want to be there (which, again, is probably influenced by a belief or predisposition) and some actually only care about what *is*).



I'm sorry but this is nonsense to me in its entirety. When a poet/musician gets an idea, they don't need to "believe" in themselves to bring it to life. What is this "believing" in ones self? Poetry is not a science, it is a means for human expression. If someone wants to express something, they don't need to "believe" whatever it is they wish to express because, chances are, they are actually feeling/experiencing it. I carry a book with me at all times in case I experience something I want to capture as it is happening when it is fresh and accessible. How/why do you "believe" in anything when you are actually experiencing it raw? This all gets ridiculous from here and "belief" certainly has no application in such a subjective domain as art.



Um, most paranoia, conspiracy theories, religions etc. actively employ belief as a means to control people. You are actually advocating that the problem "belief" is actually the solution for the problems brought about on "belief". This is the precisely same completely backwards thinking of Islam: war is a means to peace. In your case, "belief" is a means to protect against institutions that exploit "belief". Do you see how stupid this is?

Does anyone else on this board *actually* think the way dfnj does?



"Belief is applied pattern recognition" - what??? What does belief have to do with pattern recognition? Lol wow.

Pattern recognition, once again, requires (con)science - the opposite of belief. If one studies patterns, they are employing their conscience, not a "belief". You can't understand patterns by believing in them: you have to know how they are formed. For example you can't become a musician by "believing" in the scales and chords, you have to know them, understand them, practice with them etc. "Belief" is not knowledge, neither understanding, neither requires a practice to sustain. "Belief" essentially disengages the inquiring mind to the point of never questioning anything.




1. Lack of education: Muslims are erroneously taught that "belief" is a virtue. The Qur'an, which is "believed" to be the perfect, inimitable, unaltered, inerrant word of god is actually man-made. 270 000 000 people are dead and more are dying as a result of this "belief" that is packaged into the institutions of Islam.
2. Isolation: Muslims divide the world between "us believers" and "them unbelievers".
3. Desperation: people are more easily controlled when desperate/in poverty. Islam exploits this just as readily as any state.



Islam demonizes essentially every single person or group that criticizes Islam/Muhammad/Qur'an for being man-made. Why? Because it is man-made and the leaders of the ISlamic world would completely lose power if the "believing" Muslims suddenly realized that what they "believe" is actually not true. That is why people who speak out against "belief"-based institutions such as Islam are demonized - speaking the truth, which Islam absolutely hates.



"Belief" DESERVES to be challenged vigorously - the Muhammadans who "believe" the Qur'an is the word of god, when it is not, are raping / killing people based on what they are reading as "the perfect word of god". If Muslims did not erroneously "believe" that the Qur'an is anything but a man-made book, these killings, raping, and essentially what is the entire global conflict wouldn't exist. Yet Muslims ***** and complain that their "beliefs" should be respected?

This is why China declared Islam a mental illness - it is one. That doesn't mean all Muslims are bad people - in fact most are good, and some are amazing. However, this does not absolve Islam of criticism.



I'm sorry but all you have really done is highlight how "belief" is not a virtue. What is particularly clear is "belief" is being treated as a solution when in reality it is the very problem in the first place. In fact this is the *exact* same problem Islam has: Muslims "believe" Islam is the solution, but it is actually the problem. This is why hundreds of millions of people are dead, women are enslaved, and why Islam has been waging war against the entire non-Muslim world for 1400 years.

Once again: belief is absolutely not a virtue, it is a vice.

How many Muslim colleges, schools or Libraries have you seen?

 

[9-18-1]

@9-18-1 ,

You missed the point. Post 50... Lots of words, yet lacks precision. Seems to be a pattern.

Taken as a non-response: if you feel I missed a point somewhere (or many places indicating a pattern as you suggest) feel free to discuss them. You have only that to gain by doing so.

However merely stating "missed the point - verbose imprecise and a pattern" then not following up with anything does nothing for anyone here.

Then again "belief" never did anything for anyone either - the irony that you attempted to defend belief as a virtue is not coincidental with your non-response after scrutinized.

How many Muslim colleges, schools or Libraries have you seen?

Why do you keep talking about Muslims? I don't care more or less for/about Muslims than any other people - I see people as people. What do colleges, schools or libraries have to do with anything? Or in other words, what point are you trying to make here talking about Muslims and their institutions of so-called learning? In Islam the Qur'an is superior to absolutely everything else on the planet (including the laws of all non-Muslim nations) and will always, always "trump" anything that is in any other institution, if even their own. It is therefor rather pointless to even discuss alternative institutions which invariably involve "studying" the Qur'an and treating (ie. "believing") it to be the perfect word of god. The only such discussions I see relevant are how children are beaten if they pronounce words improperly. There might be a good place to start trying to uncover why some (fanatical) Muslims generally have deeply rooted and suppressed traumas that polarizes them *against* something else. If Muslims understood the problem comes from within (Islam) and not without, the world would be much, much closer to a state of peace.

No more of this "look here! look there!" nonsense - the problems of Islam need not any consideration outside the idol of Muhammad and the Qur'an being "taught" as the perfect word of god. Regardless of who it is, if they are uncomfortable with sticking within these two areas, I would happily call them an "Islamophobe" who can not stand criticisms of Islam. This is your typical Muslim who ends up projecting it outward and labeling the person doing the criticisms as the Islamophobe.

See how bad the projection problem is in Islam? There is a multi-billion dollar "Islamophobia" industry collecting taxes (jizya) from non-Muslims and using the funds to further stifle criticisms of Islam. That is why POTUS signed in protection of speech on campuses - Muhammadans are killing free speech because they can not stand criticisms of Islam. It is called fascism and why Islam is absolutely a fascist 'state'.

 

[sooda]

Taken as a non-response: if you feel I missed a point somewhere (or many places indicating a pattern as you suggest) feel free to discuss them. You have only that to gain by doing so.

However merely stating "missed the point - verbose imprecise and a pattern" then not following up with anything does nothing for anyone here.

Then again "belief" never did anything for anyone either - the irony that you attempted to defend belief as a virtue is not coincidental with your non-response after scrutinized.



Why do you keep talking about Muslims? I don't care more or less for/about Muslims than any other people - I see people as people. What do colleges, schools or libraries have to do with anything? Or in other words, what point are you trying to make here talking about Muslims and their institutions of so-called learning? In Islam the Qur'an is superior to absolutely everything else on the planet (including the laws of all non-Muslim nations) and will always, always "trump" anything that is in any other institution, if even their own. It is therefor rather pointless to even discuss alternative institutions which invariably involve "studying" the Qur'an and treating (ie. "believing") it to be the perfect word of god. The only such discussions I see relevant are how children are beaten if they pronounce words improperly. There might be a good place to start trying to uncover why some (fanatical) Muslims generally have deeply rooted and suppressed traumas that polarizes them *against* something else. If Muslims understood the problem comes from within (Islam) and not without, the world would be much, much closer to a state of peace.

No more of this "look here! look there!" nonsense - the problems of Islam need not any consideration outside the idol of Muhammad and the Qur'an being "taught" as the perfect word of god. Regardless of who it is, if they are uncomfortable with sticking within these two areas, I would happily call them an "Islamophobe" who can not stand criticisms of Islam. This is your typical Muslim who ends up projecting it outward and labeling the person doing the criticisms as the Islamophobe.

See how bad the projection problem is in Islam? There is a multi-billion dollar "Islamophobia" industry collecting taxes (jizya) from non-Muslims and using the funds to further stifle criticisms of Islam. That is why POTUS signed in protection of speech on campuses - Muhammadans are killing free speech because they can not stand criticisms of Islam. It is called fascism and why Islam is absolutely a fascist 'state'.

You are 33 years old.. What is this BS about how Muslims are traumatized or Jizya? Jizya hasn't been paid in 300 years and its a small tax for non Muslim men who want to be exempt from military service.

 

[9-18-1]

You are 33 years old.. What is this BS about how Muslims are traumatized or Jizya? Jizya hasn't been paid in 300 years and its a small tax for non Muslim men who want to be exempt from military service.

More "you". You you you. You this and you that. What is it with people who polarize directly towards/against a person? Of course this is ad hominem and understood to be the general response from one who lacks another approach.

Since you seem to be obsessed with me, here is a bit from me.

Why do you care, and why is it relevant how old I am, and how does it even apply to what follows? More generally, why is any/the person relevant and not the topic he/she is discussing? You can not introduce topics that are wholly irrelevant to the discussion and start chirping asking about whether or not someone knows Muslims or their "libraries".

The reason I am driving these points is because this is a good embryonic example of someone who is polarized against individual persons rather than focusing such energy on the arguments being made. This generally can grow into character assassination: on the highest levels political assassinations which brings us into the territory of how Muhammad handled his politics - kill anyone/everyone who did not "agree" to him or his "terms". This kind of feeling rejected and needing to assert ones self one way or the other seems a patently Canaanite characteristic that is in the very blood of Judaism/Islam. It is most certainly the global root of fascism / human suffering (trafficking) on the planet suffered by hundreds of millions now.

The *real* problem is not my age, or me, or people like me or not like me, it is people who make things *personal* without considering that which is beyond themselves. This is exactly the kind of destructive mindset in people who can not learn to accept that others may reject their "beliefs" and do so, correctly, on solid ground for them being false and, in some cases stupid (Islam not exempt). Muslims particularly struggle with this: they must assert themselves as right, true etc. superior in all manners at all times, which is where we derive things like rape jihad - the manifestation of such desire to assert ones self forcefully in an atmosphere of humiliation intended to impart a demeaning sentiment. This is a degeneracy that is likewise in the very blood of Judaism/Islam itself, given their inherent use of scapegoating and human sacrificing.

And here one 33-year-old (actually 32) says this: Judaism/Islam is (a really big part of) the problem, not the solution. The problem is treating problems as solutions, which is precisely Islam in a nutshell. If one has trouble with that, look at the "authorities" that ever emerge out of Islam: male dictators. Why did Hitler share the same passion for committing genocide against the Jews as Muhammad did? They probably both saw the same problem: lies and deception. The problem was neither realized where it was actually coming from, and so they both became puppets to deceivers greater than themselves.

Lay off then the Canaanite-ish desire to spill blood (attack) and give up the fat instead, is it not written something like? I don't speak to incite war, but to put an end to it. The source of war is human ignorance. Human ignorance is a bi-product of "belief". "Belief" is not a virtue. Muslims/Christians/(some) Jews are "believers". These "belief"-based institutions have had conflict after conflict stemming from the Middle Eastern regions. Fighting over land, over who has the right to what, who came from who, what came from what etc. and hundreds of millions are dead. For what price? Human ignorance, and nothing more - it is the only real thing that "kills".

That is not to say "believers" are without virtue, but no virtue of a, say, Muslim "believer" is derived from his/her "belief". The inverse is true: their greatest virtues are actually subjugated by (the House of) Islam wherein they can not even find (human) expression and/or an outlet for them such that they are authentic (essentially the beauty of life). Some of these virtues are extremely powerful: and I stand as witness to them in the Muslims that I have personally known (for your information since you seem to be obsessed with my person moreso than my arguments) for they are great, but also tragically they lay dormant and suppressed due to Islam, like a colour palette ready to paint the world but only one color is chosen: "belief".

So we are all clear: I understand "believers" as victims of their own oppressive ideologies because that is the reality of what human ignorance does: not knowing, therefor potentially "believing" something instead as (if) a substitute. This is why "belief" is not a virtue and my sympathy for the suffering "believer" ends when I see their own limitation within themselves: refusing to even consider an alternative view that actually resolves an inner conflict they are themselves struggling with. In Islam, there is no alternative view than the Qur'an is perfect, Muhammad is the model man, and Islam is the final religion that must be established globally. The problem is not difficult: the Qur'an is actually man-made (therefor does not carry any authority outside what humans themselves imbue it with), Muhammad was an infidel man (many partners) that set a terrible example for sexuality and Islam is wholly destructive as it it based on exploiting women/children. This is what the historical Muhammad essentially did: he was a warlord merchant that gathered women and children from wars (he started) who used them (if/as desired) and later sold them to his "enemies" as whores (sex/human trafficking) and collected money to further fight "the cause of Allah". This human trafficking network is still operating today after 1400 years and is the same as the real "cause of Allah": human trafficking.

This is fascist totalitarianism: Islam and its trafficking. It is actually objectively true which is why I am absolutely intrigued by what happens globally in the next few years - certainly a lot will be exposed with regards to the human trafficking. If enough people see how closely it is tied to these "belief"-based institutions such as Islam and the RCC, "belief" might finally be too connected to abusing women/children for most people's comfort and will be discarded as such.