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the prince of peace?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by waitasec, Jan 11, 2011.

  1. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    God will unite mankind under his own heavenly kingdom... many will fight against that and for these ones there will be no peace, but for those take up Gods offer, they will have peace

    So jesus is the prince of peace because he as been instituted the king by which his followers unite.
     
  2. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    oh, i see. you don't have peace now?
    it'll come when he comes and divides mothers from daughters and fathers from sons....tell me, how are you going to enjoy eternal bliss KNOWING your son or daughter is in eternal torment?
    :facepalm:
     
  3. mohammed_beiruti

    mohammed_beiruti Active Member

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    I don't think the idea was to make dvision in the family.
    when Jesus came with a new faith, some one would hesitate in following that (new) faith because he would lose his family accordingly,

    so in that case, he was to decide whether to folow Jesus and lose his family, or to stay with his family and neglect Jesus.

    Family in that time, might have made a pressure on the new followers of Jesus to return back to thier own belief, the belief of thier ancestors the faith of children of Israel.

    I don't like the word "division", I think word "separation" is better.

    even scientifically liquids which are different in density, it cant be mixed together.

    like (oil and water) (melted ore and scum)


    Qura'an sura "Thunder" Ch. verse 17

    17. He sends down water
    From the skies, and the channels
    Flow, each according to its measure:
    But the torrent bears away
    The foam that mounts up
    To the surface. Even so,

    Form that (ore) which they heat
    In the fire, to make ornaments
    Or utensils therewith,
    There is a scum likewise.
    Thus doth God (by parables)
    Show forth Truth and Vanity.
    For the scum disappears
    Like froth cast out;
    While that which is for the good
    Of mankind remains
    On the earth. Thus doth God
    Set forth parables.
     
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  4. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    the whole world does not have peace now... the peace spoken of with regard to Jesus role as the 'prince of peace' is a worldwide peace that will affect all people. But up until that time, the earth will continue to be what it is

    the dividing being spoken of is the division that occurs between people (including family members) when one chooses to side with God and another chooses to oppose. The choice each make acts like a sword that divides them.
     
  5. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    speak for yourself

    where does the bible say jesus is the prince of peace...?


    but will you be at peace knowing your loved ones who do not follow this faith
    are in eternal torment?
     
  6. mohammed_beiruti

    mohammed_beiruti Active Member

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    suppose that you are rewarded paradise in the herafetr.
    and suppose your mother is judged to be in hell.

    would you ask God to put you in hell instead of your mother? and let your mother enjoy being in paradise instead of you?

    Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
     
  7. Heneni

    Heneni Miss Independent

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    God's weapon is his mouth! His words can create or destroy.

    He sharpens his sword against hard hearts and he plunges his sword into soft hearts to cut out whatever worldy cancer he finds there.

    Even though God is the prince of peace, his words are received either as a blow or as a cure. And so since the same words has this dual effect the only result is division.

    John 7:43 Thus the people were divided because of Jesus.

    John 9:16 Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath." But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?" So they were divided.

    Acts 14: 4 The people of the city were divided; some sided with the Jews, others with the apostles.

    Rev 19:15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations.

    Your mouth is a weapon too. And you yield it everyday. This clashing of weapons, yours and God's results in a war. A war you cannot win if you are fighting on the wrong side.

    Matt 12:37 For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.

     
  8. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    The 'prince of peace' is spoken of in the messianic prophecies. As christians believe Jesus to be the Messiah, then we apply these scripture to him.
    Isaiah 9:6-7 "For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7 To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Jehovah of armies will do this"

    The messiah is the one who will bring mankind into peace with God, Isaiah 53:11 By means of his knowledge the righteous one, my servant, will bring a righteous standing to many people; and their errors he himself will bear

    Isaiah 2:2-4 shows those who accept him will be taught Gods ways and be united and at peace with each other because they will be taught to be peaceful with their fellowman:
    2 And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore

    The initial peace Jesus brings is a spiritual peace. The end result will be the promised paradise on earth...
    Isaiah 11:6-9 shows that there will be peace between animals and man
    Hosea 2:18 also speaks of the peace between animals and man "18 And for them I shall certainly conclude a covenant in that day in connection with the wild beast of the field and with the flying creature of the heavens and the creeping thing of the ground, and the bow and the sword and war I shall break out of the land, and I will make them lie down in security


    thankfully God has no intention of putting anyone through eternal torment. The only 'torment' will be in the knowledge that those who refuse to subject themselves to Gods rule will miss out on the wonderful opportunity he is offering them.

    When we die, we return to the dust just as the bible says we do...there is no spirit life, no existence at all...and that is what torments the living.

    Eccl 9:5 "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten"

    Psalm 146:4 "His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;
    In that day his thoughts do perish


    Would it bother me that my kids may not choose to take Gods offer...of course it will, but that is their choice just as it is my choice to take his offer. Lets put it this way, with or without God we are all going to die anyway, its only a matter of when and for many people, that thought is tormenting. If God is offering us a choice, i'm going to take that choice because i view life as better then death. I hope my kids make the same choice.
     
  9. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    that was too easy for you...;)


    i appreciate your honesty. see my mom is in that predicament and i so often wonder, how can she be at peace thinking these thoughts?
    i don't understand how that is possible...
    it seems in a way the ideal of jesus cannot be peace because he ultimately separates and divides loved one, the one that gives this life purpose.
     
  10. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    but would you be at peace KNOWING your mother is in eternal torment?
     
  11. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    what does this have to do with anything...?
    can you enlighten me?
     
  12. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    Again, you are thinking much too literally. God is not so much concerned with us harming our physical bodies or our physical world, as He is with us destroying our spiritual selves; that is, destroying our relationship with Him. God is aware that the torment that awaits those who reject Him in Hell is more terrible than anything we humans could do to our physical bodies. That's why He gives us so many opportunities to accept Him into our lives, and in the case of this story, actually stepped in and confused their entire language to keep them from damning themselves and possibly all their posterity to Hell.

    As far as the preposterous fable, I have no idea why you are wasting your time debating something you don't even believe in. There is abundant archaeological evidence that the Tower of Babel existed anyway, so it's not quite so preposterous as you may think.

    Then of course you realize that generations from now, people will think we were pathetically ignorant as well. I don't see your point. Obviously, they weren't as knowledgeable about science as we are. Science is ever-changing and the great thinkers of today will likely have just as many of their theories proved wrong as the great thinkers of the 1600's.


    First, humans were not actually born sick. When God created humanity, they were as innocent as children. You know the story. Adam and Eve disobeyed God, committing the first sin, and thus bringing sin into the world. Now we have the opportunity to disobey Him at every turn, and hurt others and ourselves at every turn, and that is pretty sick.

    Secondly, I wouldn't agree that free will threatens God. Free will probably threatens us, but God grants it to us anyway, knowing that the way He created us, we could never be happy without having choice. And so we have the free choice to worship or obey Him, or we have the free choice to reject Him and go our own way. It saddens God to watch his creations do that, but He isn't going to just take away your will and make you obedient.

    Thirdly, I don't really understand your rant about the Roman Catholic Church. They aren't my favorite people either, but the completed works of the Bible had been in existence for centuries before the Catholic Church began. And of course, many Christians are Protestants who don't subscribe to the teachings and traditions of the Catholic Church.

    Fourthly, I don't know what version of the Bible you're using, but the verse you refer to, Genesis 8:21, says:

    21And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.

    That's the King James Version. In fact, out of every major English translation of the Bible, only two say "childhood" in the place of "youth". Princeton WordNet defines youth as "the time of life between childhood and maturity" or "the state of being young, mature, or inexperienced". I think most of us can agree that teenagers have pretty evil imaginations. It's like as soon as they hit thirteen, they are tempted with sex, drugs, and other deviant behavior. Children are innocent creatures, and though they are often spoiled, selfish, or disobedient, I wouldn't say they are evil. It isn't until a human begins to understand the ways of the world that they start to purposefully participate in disgusting behavior.

    Fifthly, of course God wants us to have integrity and dignity. We are His creations. But ultimately, we give Him the glory, not ourselves, because He created us and gifted us with the many talents we have. I take pride in myself: in my talents, my appearance, my belongings. But I take the most pride in my God, who blesses me with all these things, and who saved me. And though I know I am special and unique to Him, I also understand that I don't deserve His love, because you're right; we can never do anything to earn God. We are saved by opening our hearts to Him and allowing Him to give us His grace. It's the pridefulness humans exhibit when they decide to "go it alone" without their Lord and Savior that damns them.
     
  13. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    ah, what does this have anything to do with anything...?
    do you believe this story is true, that it's the actual backdrop of the building of an ancient tower...?

    i'm here on a debating forum, why are you here? to debate and challenge yourself or to repeat yourself. if you haven't noticed, we haven't moved forward...and that's my goal for a debate...what about you?

    i have already stated that this is a legend, you are ambiguous about it saying i take it too literally, and you don't? it may be about a tower but the actual story behind the tower is not the fairy tale that was conjured up in the OT because if it were then why wouldn't god intervene when the atom bomb was created. why do you think i say nothing would have happened even if they were able to make a tower, maybe some altitude sickness, even that is very highly unlikely.

    and, what's your point? i never said pathetic, did i?
    the reason i mentioned ignorance is because the narrative implied they could reach the heavens and we now know that is impossible, so if you take this story literally, as it seems you do, why would god intervene with such a harmless act and not intervene when creating and using the atom bomb.

    so SINCE adam, humanity is born sick.
    :facepalm:
    can you answer the question? are all born sick, since adam, and ordered to be healed?

    and you don;t see how this theology is based on the principals of a dictatorship...you can't do anything unless the boss says you can

    and how do know god is sad? life is indifferent. life goes on with or without you.

    lets start with constantine...


    i use the
    NIV...

    new american standard
    the intent of man's heart is evil from his youth;

    new living translation
    even though everything they think or imagine is bent toward evil from childhood

    so are you saying that from infancy to childhood there are outside influences that can cause a child to be evil...
    all right so? what are you saying...children from the age of 8 are in fact evil? it seems you are avoiding what the passage says...
    not that there is the potential for evil, but that the human heart there's "every inclination", or "the intent" and "is bent toward".
    god essentially is saying we are evil and there is no good in us. do you agree with that?


    i have a really hard time understanding this. why would an all powerful god need me to believe in it? is god that insecure or concerned? because i see life as indifferent and too chaotic to believe god is benevolent.

    you deserve the very best
    we all do...
     
    #33 waitasec, Jan 13, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2011
  14. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    :areyoucra Why would I waste my time discussing it if I didn't think it actually happened?

    If you go back to your post, you cited examples of God not caring about us, since he didn't stop the creation of the atom bomb, which harmed and killed countless people. I was simply pointing out that you argument is flawed, seeing as how God isn't concerned with our physical selves so much as our spiritual ones. Unless you can prove that God is inordinately concerned with our physical bodies, your point isn't valid.

    I'm here to learn about what you believe. If you're uninterested in what I have to say, then feel free to discontinue your activity in the thread. We're all here because we're convicted in our own systems of belief, so I wouldn't say that anyone should be trying to convince anyone else of anything. I've been a member here for over five years, and it doesn't often happen.

    It's a legend, in your view. Most Christians wouldn't agree. That's not what we're discussing here. You asked how Christ could be the Prince of Peace if God scattered the people at the tower of Babel. I'm trying to explain to you my point of view, that God didn't confuse their language specifically to divide them, but to protect them from themselves.

    As for your atom bomb point, go back to what I've stated twice now. God isn't necessarily concerned with our physical bodies. Otherwise, why are people born mentally challenged or blind? Why do people get cancer? God's realm is the spiritual, and he is concerned with our souls. My point is that the people at Babel were putting their souls in danger...not their physical bodies.

    Ok. So they could have gotten altitude sickness. What's your point? Am I mistaken in thinking that we both agree with each other, that the people would have accomplished nothing by building their tower besides...well, building the tower? What do you think the result of their venture would have been? Certainly they wouldn't have actually built a tower to Heaven, correct?

    The narrative implied they thought they could reach the heavens. Which is, of course, ridiculous if you take it as they were trying to reach God's dwelling place. You keep repeating the atom bomb thing, but I'm saying that it wasn't harmless. The people were feeding their pride, which time and again in the Bible, led His followers away from Him. He was doing them and all humanity a favor by confusing their language so they could scatter in accordance to His plan. Even if you don't take it literally, it is essentially a story about pride.

    I'm a little confused about your metaphors of being born sick, and then being healed. We are born into a sinful world, will become sinful as we grow into adulthood, and are ordered to live our lives abstaining from sin and following God. It's pretty straight forward.

    Oh, you can choose to do whatever you wish. Christians choose to do what God says, and nonreligious people choose not to. The punishment is not immediate, but you are choosing it of your own free will.

    Life is certainly indifferent, but God isn't. He loves us enough to send His son to die for us. Why shouldn't He be sad when we turn from Him? It's pretty basic.

    Go for it.

    Yes, I would agree that human hearts are inclined towards evil. When I turn on the news and look at all the problems in our world, I don't have a choice but to believe that. And then I look at myself. I know that I personally am inclined towards bad actions. I have met very few children I would consider evil, but of course, they are often inclined to be "bad". It's the parent's job to teach their child right from wrong. After the child has matured, they are able to choose right and wrong.

    It's a stretch to say that God thinks there is no good in us. He simply recognizes that there IS evil in us, and that we are indeed inclined towards us. Lying, cheating, stealing, and all those related actions are things that I would argue human people are inclined to do in a variety of situations. So though we have the potential for good, we also have the potential for evil. Would you agree with that?

    He doesn't need you to believe in Him, but he wants you to. It's not about His security, it's about your eternal security.
     
  15. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    well good i wouldn't want you to waste your time...

    ok, isn't building a temple a physical thing?
    your spiritual argument doesn't apply because this, in your mind, physically happened. god physically intervened. do you see what i mean?

    and you say it was for their our own good. unity is a beautiful thing. god said, and you believe he said it, that nothing would be impossible if humanity is united. so? what's wrong with that? did you happen to see last nights memorial for the victims of tucson shooting? that was unity, that was positive. the ideal of being unified is a wonderful positive thing.
    again, you think this tower was a bad thing?
    from what i'm getting is that we are here to serve gods purpose, right? if that were true, then what's the point in giving us free will while throwing an ultimatum and manipulation in the equation?

    well actually it's an ongoing theme throughout the bible.
    i used an old testament story and combined it with the new testament ideology. the ideal of god divides. look at the middle east.
    how about here in the states. you realize the pledge of allegiance didn't have the word god originally. one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all...do you know when that was written? 1892. and in 1957 the word god was inserted ultimately causing what? division.

    how were they putting their souls in danger? nothing would happen, they would just create a tower and that would have been it.

    correct, so why intervene and cause division.
    are people wired to be divided or united? you can't be saying unity is evil?
    that would also apply to church gatherings, see what i mean?


    well it looks like both you and i know that would be impossible, so wouldn't god know that too?


    wasn't the creation of the atom bomb the ultimate act of arrogance and pride?

    lets just say for the sake of argument this were in fact true, do you think the reason humanity is constantly at odds with each other is because we are divided and we don't understand? are you saying god wants humanity to be at odds with each other?

    we are born with sin and commanded to remedy it

    how can you revert to punishment not realizing it's implication.

    so if life is god, then why separate the two

    i just want to know why anyone would want to limit the possibilities.
    placing labels on nature limits our capacity. being skeptical is key.

    He is most famous for becoming the single ruler of the Roman Empire (after deceiving and defeating Licinius, his brother-in-law) and supposedly converting to Christianity. It is debated whether or not Constantine was actually a believer (according to his confessions and understanding of the faith) or just someone trying to use the church and the faith to his own advantage. Constantine called the Council of Nicea—the first general council of the Christian church, 325 A.D.—primarily because he feared that disputes within the church would cause disorder within the empire. The dispute in mind was Arianism, which was the belief that Jesus was a created being. The famous phrase they were disputing was, "There was when He was not." This was in reference to Jesus and was declared heretical by the council and thus resulted in the following words about Christ in the Nicene Creed: "God from true God…from the Father…not made." It was determined by the council that Christ was homoousia, meaning, one substance with the Father.

    Did Constantine decide what books belonged in the Bible?

    without constantine christianity wouldn't have flourished. and the roman catholic church was the church and then morphed into all sorts of denominations. in other words every christian religion is tied to the roman catholic church. have you noticed how the pope emulates caesar?



    so you wake up every day wanting to hurt someone...i highly doubt that.
    or that humanity wakes up every morning wanting to commit evil acts.
    you really believe that?
    this is what i am referring to when i say division, what the god in the bible claims to have done.


    please show me where in your bible it says there is good in us just as much as there is bad



    think of a worm on the ground. it has a limited capacity to understand the world around it, do you think i would care what it thinks?


    why would you want to limit yourself and why would you want to base your faith on fear?
     
  16. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    yeah i see what you mean...but we hold to the bibles teaching that the dead are not conscious, so there can be no conscious torment after death as some are teaching. I would find it very difficult to justify Gods actions if that were really the case, but thankfully it isnt.

    I look further then the present though. The peace that will come will be a greater peace then simply 'peace of mind' ... it will be real lasting peace on earth in everyway...peace between man and man, between man and beast and between man and the environment.
     
    #36 Pegg, Jan 13, 2011
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2011
  17. waitasec

    waitasec Veteran Member

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    :)


    i'm certainly all for that!!
    i just doubt it'll be religious faith that will provide the vehicle to take us there...
    but what can one do other than do the best with what you have and be good and fair to your fellow man...
     
  18. Pegg

    Pegg Jehovah our God is One

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    religious faith alone will not bring it, thats for sure...

    and when you think about, all people want peace...but even if all nations could put down their weapons and disarm themselves thereby preventing war, we'd still have environmental disasters to deal with, disease, famine and the like...those things contribute a lot to peace and security and religions can do nothing to prevent them. So this is why it will take someone with power beyond what is normal to achieve the sort of peace the bible speak of.
    Jesus showed he had the sort of power needed when he fed the hungry, cured the sick, raised the dead and calmed the winds... as the prince of peace he will be able to accomplish what has been promised. ;)
     
  19. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Just thought your ^above^ post bears repeating.

    In this system of things, of course, we know with or without God we all die.
    'Die' that is until Jesus involves himself into mankind's affairs.

    So, the thought of death is less tormenting that either will be resurrected, or even better, if still alive at the time of Matthew [25vs31,32] we can be part of the living sheep-like ones that can gain everlasting life without having to die.
     
  20. Lindsey-Loo

    Lindsey-Loo Steel Magnolia

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    Yes, of course building the tower was physical. And though God didn't physically do anything, I agree that he intervened and altered some physical factor in the world. He confused the language, thus separating the people into various cultures and geographies. But His intervention wasn't to alter their physical selves, but their spiritual path. See what I am trying to say? I am obviously doing a bad job explaining myself. :sorry1:

    Unity for the right cause is beautiful. But look at the Nazi's. They were unified, yet they wreaked havoc on the modern world. You can't make the blanket statement "unity is good" because unity is obviously not always good. The way I interpret this story, the people were unified for a negative cause. They wanted to make a name for themselves, give themselves the glory, and ultimately put themselves on the same level as God by trying to reach Heaven, which could have easily resulted in the loss of their souls. So yes, I think the tower was an excessively bad thing, even more so when we apply the story to our own lives. This tower was physical, but I think we all have one, some source of pride that we use to build ourselves up.

    We are here to live lives dedicated to God, but if He made us do that, what purpose would it serve? God loves his creation, and I don't believe he would take away our free will.I don't see too much manipulation in the question. It's very basic. Choose God, or do not choose God. Follow him, or do not. He gives us his commandments, and then we either follow them or don't. Noncompliance is of course an option, but God makes us aware of the consequences of our actions. I don't know about you, but I love my free will. :yes:


    Oh, I wouldn't say God caused those divisions. People caused those divisions. Using that logic, just about everything is divisive. And then of course, we should even consider that divisive is not the opposite of peaceful. Violent is the opposite of peaceful. Many men of peace like MLK and Ghandi caused divisions, but that doesn't mean they weren't peaceful.

    That's what I've been trying to explain to you this entire time. Any time you sin, you are endangering your soul. I think this is especially true when you try to place yourself at the same level of God out of pride. Look at Eve in the Garden. The snake told her that she would be like God if she ate the forbidden fruit, and she did so. This is the same kind of thing. The people, in their pride, were trying to reach the heavens. They were trying to place themselves, physically in this case, on the same plane as God and he thwarted that effort, knowing that by committing the sin of pride, they could be lost.

    Again, the people were leading themselves down a path of sin. I think it depends on the scenario as to whether people become divided or united. For example, Republicans and Democrats generally disagree, but they have both expressed their sympathy for the victims in Arizona this week. So no, unity is not inherently evil, but it is also not inherently good. Unity can be used for evil, as well. In the case of this tower, the people were using it for evil since they were disobeying God's commands to go forth and multiply, and indulging in their prideful natures.

    Of course He knew that theirs was a pointless effort, but He also knew their hearts and that they were sinning against him. He protected them from losing their spiritual safety by dividing their language and carrying on with His plan for the world.

    Oh, perhaps that is so for the individual scientists who created and tested it, but I think we can agree that the atom bomb was not created for the purpose of arrogance and pride, as the Tower of Babel was. The Bible specifically says that they wanted to make a name for themselves. Their tower was a blatant display of arrogance and pride, but I think the atom bomb was mostly to murder innocents.

    :rolleyes: No. That's not what I'm saying. Humanity is constantly at odds with each other because we don't take it upon ourselves to understand. I applaud all the members of this forum for making efforts to understand people who are different from them. Anyone can understand with enough effort. Don't you feel like you understand me more just from this short discussion? Bridges can always be built and differences in language, culture, and religion can always be overcome. God even commands Christians to go forth and preach to all the world. He doesn't want us to be divided, but He doesn't want us all living up in some tower either.

    I need context to address this. Where in the Bible do you draw this conclusion from?

    Elaborate?

    I'm not sure that life is God. I don't see how they could be interchangeable. I mean, I can say that I'm living but not that I'm Godding, right? :D

    Who is limiting what possibilities? Sorry. It's been a long day! But of course, yes, skepticism is always commendable.
    Even if not for Constantine, I tend to believe that God would have used another person to further His plans for the world. Constantine was like a tool in the grand scheme of Christianity. People are always pointing out how the Catholics made the Bible, and that's where I go on my faith. I believe that everything God intended to be there, is there. He would not allow His people to be led astray.

    There was actually a decently healthy sect of early "Protestants" throughout history, though obviously they would not have gone by that name. But since the foundation of Christ's church, Catholics were not the only ones trying to follow God. And then again, I think God may have used the Catholic church to preserve His word. When you have a strong faith, you generally believe that God's hand in the world means that everything happens for the best. It's all part of His plan anyway, so I don't stress about the Catholic Church too often. And don't even get me started on the Pope. :jester5: I might insult someone on accident.
     
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