The Power of Prayer

[OldTimeNESter]

If you rent a house from a landlord and there are rules for your tenancy set out by him, and you ignore them, is he not free to evict you? Is he forcing you to abide by his rules? Or are you just not being a responsible tenant and respecting your landlord's property?

God won't force you to obey him, but if you choose not to, you can expect an eviction notice. As the Creator and Sovereign of all who live (whether they recognize him as such or not) we have an obligation to live as he instructs us to live...he has no need or desire to torture anyone....why would he?

Yes, if a landlord threatens to evict you for not obeying his rules (and has the power to act on that threat) then he is forcing you to obey. Now, you can argue that he's forcing you for your own good, similar to a parent who forces a young child to go to bed instead of staying up playing Angry Birds; nevertheless, it is still force: I don't wish to obey, but I am compelled to obey because of a force (the force of law) that is stronger than I am.

I do agree that we have free will, so I would agree that it is a choice to obey god or "be evicted": in that sense, he does not force anyone to obey. Perhaps we can agree that (1) God offers you a choice as to whether to obey Him, but (2) if you don't, he will punish you; and if you persist, he will punish you with eternal damnation?

 

[Deeje]

Yes, if a landlord threatens to evict you for not obeying his rules (and has the power to act on that threat) then he is forcing you to obey. Now, you can argue that he's forcing you for your own good, similar to a parent who forces a young child to go to bed instead of staying up playing Angry Birds; nevertheless, it is still force: I don't wish to obey, but I am compelled to obey because of a force (the force of law) that is stronger than I am.

I like the parent / child analogy here because it is very much the situation as I see it.
The Father has such vast wisdom and we are just infants at this stage of our existence. God does not make laws to restrict our enjoyment of life, but to protect us from our uneducated and naive selves....from making stupid decisions that will come back to bite us....but only if we take notice and act on his counsel.

I do agree that we have free will, so I would agree that it is a choice to obey god or "be evicted": in that sense, he does not force anyone to obey. Perhaps we can agree that (1) God offers you a choice as to whether to obey Him, but (2) if you don't, he will punish you; and if you persist, he will punish you with eternal damnation?

Yes, I agree.....but only till we get to the "eternal damnation" thing. What do you think eternal damnation is?
I'd like to see some scripture that says we will suffer in any way after death.....

 

[OldTimeNESter]

I've read the Bible, but I don't know it well enough to quote any verse relating to Hell or damnation; I do recall hearing that the modern conception of Hell as a pit of fire beneath the surface of the Earth is due to Dante's Inferno, not the Bible. I can also recall St. Thomas Aquinas addressing how an incorporeal spirit could be harmed by fire, and asserting that the pain was equivalent in kind and intensity to the pain a living being would feel from being on fire.

I don't believe anything capable of subjective consciousness survives death, at least absent some futuristic technology whose viability has yet to be demonstrated.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I've read the Bible, but I don't know it well enough to quote any verse relating to Hell or damnation; I do recall hearing that the modern conception of Hell as a pit of fire beneath the surface of the Earth is due to Dante's Inferno, not the Bible. I can also recall St. Thomas Aquinas addressing how an incorporeal spirit could be harmed by fire, and asserting that the pain was equivalent in kind and intensity to the pain a living being would feel from being on fire.

I don't believe anything capable of subjective consciousness survives death, at least absent some futuristic technology whose viability has yet to be demonstrated.

Hey! Welcome! I hope you’ll have a good experience on these forums.

I like your post, btw.

I believe you’re right about the reality of death, and what the Bible says about Hell.

(If there is no consciousness after death, then there couldn’t really be any torment.)

 

[Deeje]

I've read the Bible, but I don't know it well enough to quote any verse relating to Hell or damnation; I do recall hearing that the modern conception of Hell as a pit of fire beneath the surface of the Earth is due to Dante's Inferno, not the Bible. I can also recall St. Thomas Aquinas addressing how an incorporeal spirit could be harmed by fire, and asserting that the pain was equivalent in kind and intensity to the pain a living being would feel from being on fire.

Does that sound like something a loving God would do? Would you do that to your children?

In Jeremiah 7:30-31...
"For the people of Judah have done what is bad in my eyes,’ declares Jehovah. ‘They have set up their disgusting idols in the house that bears my name, in order to defile it. 31 They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart." (see also Jeremiah19:5)

If God reprimanded the Israelites for burning their children in a fire, why would he do it himself?

In the Bible there is only life or death...and we make that choice of our own free will. We either want what God is offering...or we don't. He will not force anything on us.

I don't believe anything capable of subjective consciousness survives death, at least absent some futuristic technology whose viability has yet to be demonstrated.

The Bible does not teach "life after death"......when a person dies, he is returned to the dust. There is no consciousness in the grave. (Ecclesiastes 9:5; 10) The Bible teaches resurrection, i.e. a restoration of life here on a beautiful earth, cleansed of all wickedness, to enjoy what the Creator purposed in the first place. (Revelation 21:2-4) The present is only tolerable.....but the future will be wonderful.