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The Power of Prayer

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
That would mean that if we looked at a population of people and corrected for all other factors, we would see a correlation between prayer and medical outcomes.

Do we see this?

Read what I said again.....no one is talking about prayer miraculously affecting medical outcomes. I said that those with faith have a better way of dealing with health problems. There is a correlation of better outcomes because those with faith are in a better psychological position to cope. A good deal of our health outcomes are affected by how we think and feel about our situation.

*Believing* that you can get well, can affect medical outcomes. The placebo effect is proof of this. The other factor is that not all cancers will kill you. Some people who have more active immune systems will deal with these cancers themselves, sometimes without any knowledge that they ever had a cancer. (I had a friend who experienced this....a scan revealed that she had suffered a brain tumour which her immune system had apparently dealt with it.)

For those with no faith in God and no hope for any future life, a terminal medical diagnosis is the end of everything for them. But for a Christian, death is not the end, but there is a promised new beginning. Dying is difficult for everyone, but hope keeps a person's spirits up. Looking forward to something better can make death easier to bear, knowing that you will see lost loved ones again.

Unbelievers have no idea......
 

Milton Platt

Well-Known Member
praying-man-300x300.jpg


Actually the psychological power of prayer...

Prayer Increases Self-Control
Prayer Regulates Emotions
Prayer Reduces Anxiety and Depression
Prayer Promotes a Calm Mind

The Psychological Power of Prayer | Mind & Spirit

Petition prayer seems nonsensical wrt a omniscient/omnipotent deity.

However believers must get something out of it, else they wouldn't keep doing it.

I don't know if we should be knocking down prayer so much if there is a real psychological benefit to it. Prayer, the purpose of prayer is to support the mental health of the believer if nothing else.

I have known some Christians who were pretty miserable, so I don't think the meme holds up.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Read what I said again.....no one is talking about prayer miraculously affecting medical outcomes. I said that those with faith have a better way of dealing with health problems.
Seems you're the one who needs to read more carefully. I wasn't talking about magical cures; I'm just talking about measurable effects.

There is a correlation of better outcomes because those with faith are in a better psychological position to cope.
Is there?

Maybe establish that there is a correlation at all before trying to explain it.

A good deal of our health outcomes are affected by how we think and feel about our situation.

*Believing* that you can get well, can affect medical outcomes.
A positive mindset helps medical outcomes. Why would prayer necessarily be associated with a positive mindset?

The placebo effect is proof of this.
The placebo effect gets overstated. It's mostly a matter of experimenter biases and a bit of temporary improvement in subjective, self-reported measures.

The other factor is that not all cancers will kill you. Some people who have more active immune systems will deal with these cancers themselves, sometimes without any knowledge that they ever had a cancer. (I had a friend who experienced this....a scan revealed that she had suffered a brain tumour which her immune system had apparently dealt with it.)

For those with no faith in God and no hope for any future life, a terminal medical diagnosis is the end of everything for them. But for a Christian, death is not the end, but there is a promised new beginning. Dying is difficult for everyone, but hope keeps a person's spirits up. Looking forward to something better can make death easier to bear, knowing that you will see lost loved ones again.
So faith takes away motivation to fight to stay alive?

I've had a number of people close to me deal with terminal illnesses, some religious, some atheist. I've also watched people cope with the illness and death of their loved ones. Anecdotally, it seems that the effect of religious faith is often profoundly negative: more often than not, religion isn't a comfort; instead, whatever physical crisis they're going through - or watching a loved one go through - can't be reconciled with their belief in a lovibg God or a perfect divine plan. Because of this, they end up going through an emotionally difficult crisis of faith on top of all their other struggles.

The atheists generally feel free to be angry or sad about their circumstances. IMO, the theists are no less motivated to anger or sadness, but when they feel these natural responses to their predicament, this comes as a package with guilt and shame at questioning God's wisdom by feeling anger or sadness at "God's plan."

Unbelievers have no idea......
We have a better idea than you probably think, IMO.

Have you ever watched an atheist you're close to go through a major crisis like a life-threatening disease?
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
Seems you're the one who needs to read more carefully. I wasn't talking about magical cures; I'm just talking about measurable effects.

Maybe establish that there is a correlation at all before trying to explain it.

Perhaps this will help...
"For example, researchers at the Mayo Clinic concluded, “Most studies have shown that religious involvement and spirituality are associated with better health outcomes, including greater longevity, coping skills, and health-related quality of life (even during terminal illness) and less anxiety, depression, and suicide. Several studies have shown that addressing the spiritual needs of the patient may enhance recovery from illness.”

Science Says: Religion Is Good For Your Health

A positive mindset helps medical outcomes. Why would prayer necessarily be associated with a positive mindset?

Prayer demonstrates a reliance on a higher power.....atheists have no higher power than themselves. A positive mindset is an advantage, but one that sees past death has more positivity.....its called hope, and its a powerful thing.

The placebo effect gets overstated. It's mostly a matter of experimenter biases and a bit of temporary improvement in subjective, self-reported measures.

According to this study....

"Conclusions and Implications
Placebos and treatments often have similar effect sizes. Placebos with comparatively powerful effects can benefit patients either alone or as part of a therapeutic regime, and trials involving such placebos must be adequately blinded."


Are Treatments More Effective than Placebos? A Systematic Review and Meta-Analysis

If the placebo effect was overrated then why the need for double blind studies?

So faith takes away motivation to fight to stay alive?
:facepalm: Is that what I said? Nice strawman. Those with faith have no more desire for death and anyone else. Death is foreign to humankind and always has been. We have no program for death. It was never supposed to happen. Its why we fight to live.
Animals have no such fight to live. They resign themselves to death quite readily. That is probably because they have no concept of the future and can never imagine that they will die. Only humans can do that.

I've had a number of people close to me deal with terminal illnesses, some religious, some atheist. I've also watched people cope with the illness and death of their loved ones. Anecdotally, it seems that the effect of religious faith is often profoundly negative: more often than not, religion isn't a comfort; instead, whatever physical crisis they're going through - or watching a loved one go through - can't be reconciled with their belief in a lovibg God or a perfect divine plan. Because of this, they end up going through an emotionally difficult crisis of faith on top of all their other struggles.

There is no accounting for what people want to believe. If they suffer a crisis of faith over such things, then their faith was misplaced to begin with. A loving God and a divine plan are concocted differently in different mindsets. I have no difficulty coping with whatever this world throws at me because I know what the Bible teaches as opposed to what religion promotes. I have had my share of tragedy and death. My faith keeps me buoyed and grounded. My expectations are realistic.

The atheists generally feel free to be angry or sad about their circumstances. IMO, the theists are no less motivated to anger or sadness, but when they feel these natural responses to their predicament, this comes as a package with guilt and shame at questioning God's wisdom by feeling anger or sadness at "God's plan."

Everyone tackles the difficult forgone eventuality of death in different ways.....faith helps many to cope with something they don't want to happen....but its unavoidable. Death was never in "God's plan", so perhaps a reeducation about such things is in order?

We have a better idea than you probably think, IMO.

Have you ever watched an atheist you're close to go through a major crisis like a life-threatening disease?

Yes. There was resignation for some and fear for others.....in case they got it wrong. For many there is a lingering doubt.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes, as a tribal affiliation religion can be therapeutic, but most present themselves as objective truth.
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
praying-man-300x300.jpg


Actually the psychological power of prayer...

Prayer Increases Self-Control
Prayer Regulates Emotions
Prayer Reduces Anxiety and Depression
Prayer Promotes a Calm Mind

The Psychological Power of Prayer | Mind & Spirit

Petition prayer seems nonsensical wrt a omniscient/omnipotent deity.

However believers must get something out of it, else they wouldn't keep doing it.

I don't know if we should be knocking down prayer so much if there is a real psychological benefit to it. Prayer, the purpose of prayer is to support the mental health of the believer if nothing else.

Do you see prayer as better at providing these positive outcomes than meditation?
Do you see any downsides to prayer?
Do those same downsides exist for meditation?
 

j1i

Smiling is charity without giving money
praying-man-300x300.jpg


Actually the psychological power of prayer...

Prayer Increases Self-Control
Prayer Regulates Emotions
Prayer Reduces Anxiety and Depression
Prayer Promotes a Calm Mind

The Psychological Power of Prayer | Mind & Spirit

Petition prayer seems nonsensical wrt a omniscient/omnipotent deity.

However believers must get something out of it, else they wouldn't keep doing it.

I don't know if we should be knocking down prayer so much if there is a real psychological benefit to it. Prayer, the purpose of prayer is to support the mental health of the believer if nothing else.


Prayer is the dialogue between you and who you think receives prayer

There is scientific proof as a Muslim on prayer interest

Prayer, which includes physical movements by Muslims, proves that it strengthens the health of bones, ligaments, muscles and joints

Spiritually also works to stimulate the secretion of chemicals in the brain and its function to support psychological comfort

The hardest question
How do I know that my prayers are true (to real god) and have magical effect, with God's answer your pray?

If bananas ask you to worship him, the maximum you will get is only bananas :confused:

If potatoes ask you to worship him, the maximum you will get is only potatoes :eek:

If someone asks you to worship him, you will have limited interests on the planet :oops:

My choice of God I believe, taking into account his space and size reflects the amount of echo that will come back to you
I mean, if you worship the planet, your value reward is the planet
If you worship the star of the sun, your value reward is the sun
If you worship the universe, your validity is only this universe

If you are an employee and do not obey your boss, work will be separated and the continuation of your life without a job is hell
Thus we work with God as creatures and if we do not worship Him we will be punished with deprivation

Prayer is a human function for health insurance, salary, psychological comfort and benefits in general as a believer

If you worship Allah, which is worshiped by Muslims? !!!
You will get everything and wide psychological comfort (the size of God is not limited) because God is our Creator does not die and the first without birth and no beginning, the last without inheritance and no end

Believing that you worship is a great thing that exceeds all expectations drives your brain to pump more hormones that help you meditate and look


Worship whereby I get corrected the total infrastructure
Energy level - Wikipedia
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Do you see prayer as better at providing these positive outcomes than meditation?
Do you see any downsides to prayer?
Do those same downsides exist for meditation?

That's what I'm wondering. People keep praying, I assume that means they are getting something beneficial from it. Otherwise, why would people keep doing something they see no benefit in.

One benefit would seem to lessen anxiety, which would relate to stress and possibly depression.

However the other problem is if you idea of God is wrathful, it might increase anxiety.

Thinking about it further, there are a lot a variables involved. Hard to make any direct correlation between meditation and prayer. What's prayer to one person maybe meditation to the next.

In general however, the studies I've seen between being a theist or atheist has no relevant effect on one's mental health.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
praying-man-300x300.jpg


Actually the psychological power of prayer...

Prayer Increases Self-Control
Prayer Regulates Emotions
Prayer Reduces Anxiety and Depression
Prayer Promotes a Calm Mind

The Psychological Power of Prayer | Mind & Spirit

Petition prayer seems nonsensical wrt a omniscient/omnipotent deity.

However believers must get something out of it, else they wouldn't keep doing it.

I don't know if we should be knocking down prayer so much if there is a real psychological benefit to it. Prayer, the purpose of prayer is to support the mental health of the believer if nothing else.

Sure, it might have such beneficial effects. Don't find that unbelievable, or even surprising, at all.
These effects are not the direct result of "talking to a deity" however.

They are the result of deeper underlying psychological processes. The same processes that also active while meditating. Or doing Yoga. Or reading a book. Or doing some gardening. Or jogging. Or playing the drums. Or whatever floats your personal boat.

The actual praying aspect, has actually nothing to do with it.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Well, all I know is that Rob, with his first wife that died with an inoperable brain tumor, found out that his second wife had a death sentence of months with another inoperable brain tumor.

However, in this case, he was armed and dangerous with effectual prayer. The brain tumor disappeared and the doctors don't know why.

He is happier! Certainly the mental health of the results helped both of them. And certainly it wasn't that way with the first wife.


Strange... because my friend Peter over here, also lost his first wife to cancer. Then his second wife also had a cancer and after several scientific treatments it went into remission. He then prayed for the remission to continue and instead, the cancer returned 20 times more aggressive and she died. That same day, his dog esaped and ran under a truck.

he wasn't happier.
 

OldTimeNESter

New Member
I wondered about that too once, but studying the Bible answered that one for me....

Humans have a tendency to say "I can do it myself" or "I want to do it my way" so God provided prayer as a gauge to see how much you rely on him, as opposed to relying on ourselves. This is because we were designed originally to be ruled by him, but it was never going to be forced. We were to look to our Maker for his advice on how to proceed with any decisions we had to make. If you follow God's advice rather then relying on your own wisdom, you can save yourself a lot of disappointment and heartache. He already knows what we need, but we don't.....the aftermath of making a bad choice can affect us for the rest of our lives (emphasis mine, not the OP).
.

As I understand it, if I don't believe in the Christian God and obey His rules, I'm going to Hell; that is the definition of a forced belief.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
As I understand it, if I don't believe in the Christian God and obey His rules, I'm going to Hell; that is the definition of a forced belief.

Actually belief in a fiery hell was adopted by the Catholic Church to keep their flock in fear and under control. There is no such place as "hell" in the Bible. When Jesus mentioned a place called "gehenna" he was referring to a rubbish tip that had fires burning day and night to consume the garbage. When he sentenced the religious leaders of his day to "gehenna" he was symbolically telling them that they will suffer complete and eternal destruction....not eternal torture. Sheol and hades were just the common grave.

The dead are not conscious, (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) according to ancient Jewish belief. Both Judaism and Christianity later adopted belief in an immortal soul from the Greeks. It's not a Bible teaching. In order to facilitate this belief, they had to invent places for these souls to go after death.....but the truth is...they were just in their graves...they hadn't gone anywhere. Resurrection is what the Bible teaches. That is something completely different.

The Jews never had a belief in heaven or hell.....they simply believed in life or death. (Deuteronomy 30:19)

If you rent a house from a landlord and there are rules for your tenancy set out by him, and you ignore them, is he not free to evict you? Is he forcing you to abide by his rules? Or are you just not being a responsible tenant and respecting your landlord's property?

God won't force you to obey him, but if you choose not to, you can expect an eviction notice. As the Creator and Sovereign of all who live (whether they recognize him as such or not) we have an obligation to live as he instructs us to live...he has no need or desire to torture anyone....why would he?
 
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