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Featured The Power Of Circular Reasoning

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, Jun 21, 2019.

  1. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    What value are you talking about?

    You are ignoring the many negative possibilities that come through believing things that are not verifiably true/unfalsifiable. The history of religion is full of these examples.

    Good to know. Please inform the vast majority of your theistic compatriots who believe in the Abrahamic/omnimax God.
     
  2. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

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    The superiority of 1st generation Battletech to Macross/ Robotech.
     
  3. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Cannot possibly agree with anything that you say, but I note something that I'll bet you didn't, and will likely not like when you do see it.

    You claim God is right to kill infants who have the "wrong parents," (ones who will bring them up to believe what the parents do),, but not for anything that those infants have done themselves. Yet, is it not the same with religion? You say it yourself, children will be brought up to believe as their parents do...the children of Christian parents will likely be Christians, of Muslim or Hindu parents, Muslims or Hindus, and of atheist parents, more atheists. So why, tell us, isn't God killing off all those Muslims, Hindus, and even the Christians who haven't the sensed to be a JW, like you?

    According to you, God set the standard....and now, once again, fails to uphold it. How do you explain that? For me, all it says is that your thinking is muddled with too much dogma, and too little real thought.
     
  4. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You see things through your own lens, like we all do. So if that is the case, whose lens is the correct one....obviously, the one that allows clear crisp vision? There are so many things, both internal and external, that can cloud it. The heart will have its way. (Jeremiah 17:9)

    It is said in scripture that God has foreknowledge of things that have not yet happened.....he can see the future...something that was not granted to humans. It's why we are encouraged to obey the one who has the kind of vision that we do not have.
    God could already see what kind of people those children would grow up to be in that environment. The creator of justice does not then become a hypocrite. No one loses their life in this world who does not deserve to....but, what constitutes "deserving" is not our decision to make.

    The other side of that coin however, is God's promise to restore the lives of those, who by circumstances beyond their control, did not have an opportunity to be the kind of people who could become acceptable to God under different circumstances. I believe that God will provide those circumstances in the future. The extreme conditions under which both Noah and Lot survived a divine judgment, creates precedents for us. Does God provide the way out of another judgment event that is to come, according to scripture? (Matthew 24:21-22) The "tribulation" that is coming has no precedent.
    But God tells us how to save ourselves. It requires a positive response to a message that is preached all over the world. The good news is about how God's kingdom will end failed human rulership and replace it. (Matthew 12:14; Daniel 2:44)

    As I said, God knows what is in the hearts of all. There are no humans on earth whom the Father does not know and cannot evaluate their potential to become useful citizens of his incoming kingdom.

    Jesus already foretold that in this time of the end, "few" would actually prove to be the kind of people that God is looking for. They will take the easy road because a 'cramped and narrow road' does not suit them. (Matthew 7:13-14) Selfishness drives human behavior. Christ taught selflessness....opposites.

    Acts of the Apostles 10:34-35 says that "...God is not partial, 35 but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him."

    So, no matter what nation or religious system a person may have been raised in, God will know who has the potential to be a good and obedient citizen of his Kingdom, and provide them with the means to get to know his truth. (John 6:44; 65) They will then decide for themselves, what to do about that knowledge. But I assure you, that those who are "drawn" by God will have a hard time rejecting him. Seeing he truth is like opening a door to the most amazing future that one could ever contemplate, whilst at the same time explaining why we are going through the trials of this life. But this truth is withheld from those who have no love for God and no intention to follow his rules. They are permitted to keep their own ill informed delusions. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

    Understanding the way God works to select the citizens of his kingdom to come, explains everything.The one thing that God has demanded from his worshippers right from the beginning is obedience. Very few are inclined to give him that consistently, justifying all manner of exemptions to suit what they want to believe. Obedience is not just about the easy things....the hard things need to be observed too. This is what separates the sheep from the goats.

    What is muddled is the thinking of people who do not know God and therefore do not respect him or his way of dealing with and accepting the challenge to his sovereignty that occurred in Eden.

    If people want to judge the judge, based on their own faulty reasoning, then they will fare badly I'm afraid....they can try, but it won't get them very far. :(
     
    #124 Deeje, Jun 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
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  5. RedhorseWoman

    RedhorseWoman Active Member

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    Has something radically changed in JW teachings? Not that that would be particularly unusual, though, I suppose. While it is true that JWs have always believed that Jehovah CAN see the future, we were always taught that he chose NOT to exercise that foreknowledge with regard to humans.

    If he did allow himself to see how every human would react in the future, that would erase any possibility of "free will" and would give credence to predestination with no one being able to change what was ordained for them...and predestination was always a belief that was anathema to JWs. It would also mean that Adam and Eve were predestined to disobey God and that he saw this before it ever happened...no choice...just an evil little game with God knowing the result before he ever created them.

    What you have stated here while trying to justify the eradication of tiny babies and children who never had a chance to exercise "free will" is speaking in support of predestination. God had "foreknowledge" that these children would be evil, so he just chucked out any pretense of humans having "free will" to choose what course they would follow and destroyed them because he "knew" they would end up evil...no choice on their part...no free will to choose good or evil.

    Are you sure that you want to go this route?
     
  6. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    In that I am completely ignorant of science fiction cartoon games---I'm guessing that's what 1st generation Battletech to Macross/ Robotech refers to---I defer to your knowledge and experience, and will go along with whatever you say.
    .

    .
     
  7. Jos

    Jos Active Member

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    I'm not a Christian or anything and I'm not writing in defense of Christianity but how does an all knowing God knowing what we will do in the future predetermine our actions and negate free will? I never understood that. Foreknowledge doesn't make the actions come true so how is it a problem?
     
  8. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    May I ask, what do you consider sufficient evidence?
     
  9. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    The idea is, if god knows everything, including what you will do at a particular time in the future, when that particular time arrives you cannot do other than what god saw you do, because if you could it would mean that god doesn't know everything after all. Hence, your will is not free to do otherwise.

    .
     
  10. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    That depends entirely on the claim. When it comes to God, it depends entirely on the version of God being proposed. I think some versions of God are unfalsifiable so by definition no evidence can sufficiently confirm them since any state of affairs can be rationalized as confirmatory evidence.
     
  11. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I'm not asking you what would amount to sufficient evidence for a version of God, but what you would consider sufficient evidence for a God... In other words, a celestial supreme being - a creator.
     
  12. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    Again, not everyone has the same definition of a "celestial supreme being." Is this God directly observable, measurable, empirically detectable in some way?
     
  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Nope. :D
     
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  14. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    You cannot do anything other than what God knows you will do simply because God knows everything you will do, since the essential knowledge of God surrounds the realities of all things, before and well as after their occurrence...

    But God's knowing is not what causes things to happen. We cause things to happen by choosing to do them and acting upon that choice. God simply knows what we will choose since God has foreknowledge.
     
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  15. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    When you say directly observable, do you mean, can be seen with the naked eye, or with the use of instruments?
    Can you directly observe air?
    What do you need to use in order to detect it?
    What instrument do you suggest we can use to detect an all powerful supernatural being that is responsible for all forms of energy?
    Can we directly observe all the forces in the universe? What instrument can we use?

    Great Attractor
    A mysterious intergalactic force is drawing the Milky Way galaxy inward, according to a group of Australian astronomers.

    Nobody knows what, or why, is causing the immense gravitational pull, but a swarm of hundreds of nearby galaxies may help astronomers reveal the identity of the ‘Great Attractor’.


    I believe you do accept two - or more - hypothetical "forces" ("dark energy" and "dark matter") that cannot be directly observed.
    Why do you accept these hypotheses?
    Faith? Reason? Empirical evidence? Measurements?

    The so-called “Dark matter” cannot be directly observed because it gives off no radiation. This means that it does not interact with the light. Up until now, people have been asking "How do we know dark matter exists if we can't see it?" Scientists believe that there is something holding the universe together that explains why all the celestial bodies are in their motion.

    Belief?
    How do you measure and empirically detect an hypothetical?
    Can God be measured and empirically detected?
    What do you think?
     
  16. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    That is up to us to determine. We all decide by experience and desire what is good and what is not.
    There is no "falsifying" the nature or existence of 'God'. There is only the choice to believe or not to believe as we see fit. And what we choose to believe determines the possibilities and the consequences. Then it comes down to what we value. If we value violence, vengeance, lust and power, then we will choose our gods accordingly. If we value love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity, we will choose our gods accordingly. Either way, our faith in our gods can help us to determine and achieve our goals.
     
  17. Jos

    Jos Active Member

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    Right if we wanted to do differently we would have done differently and God would see that different action that we wanted to do but I still don't see how God foreknowing an action would mean we could only do that action and not some other action. I don't see how it negates free will. God just foreknows what someone would do, not causing them to act that way.
     
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  18. Catholicus

    Catholicus Active Member

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    To be exact God, did deliver the message Himself, when He took on human nature and walked in this world as Jesus of Nazareth.
     
  19. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    Either/or

    Haven't you ever watched the weather guy on your local news? How do you think they detect wind speed?

    Being supernatural suggests being beyond nature, which would mean beyond observation and measurement. I have no idea how we detect or measure the supernatural, which is why I don't believe in it.

    At this point, no we probably can't.

    The gravity they exert can very much be measured. That's how astronomers know they're there. I'm not an expert on dark matter/energy so I won't be able to answer all your questions about it.

    I accept that there is a phenomenon out there that astronomers have directly observed for which they are seeking an explanation. I have no idea what that explanation will finally be when we have the technology to understand more about it.

    No.

    Yes.

    Yea...belief just means being convinced something is true/real. There are good reasons for belief and bad reasons.

    That depends on the hypothetical.

    So far it doesn't sound like it. And if there's no way to empirically detect something in any way, how do we have any rational confidence it exists?
     
  20. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    So you're advocating a belief system in which we believe in things we personally prefer over things that are verifiably true. Not to be blunt, but that is a terrible idea.

    I'm starting a different thread about choosing what we believe, that's a whole separate discussion I think.

    If faith can just as easily lead us down a path of violence, vengeance, lust, and power as it can a path of love, forgiveness, kindness, and generosity, then what do we need it for? I can obtain all the good things you mentioned without believing in things that are unfalsifiable/unverifiable. Which is why we don't need faith, or religion.
     
    #140 Left Coast, Jun 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
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