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Featured The Power Of Circular Reasoning

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, Jun 21, 2019.

  1. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    The one in the OP is much "deeper" IMO
     
  2. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    This article covers the subject:

    Circular reasoning - RationalWiki
     
  3. nPeace

    nPeace Well-Known Member

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    I still don't see what that has to do with what people actually says.
    You will have to show me someone who actually uses such reasoning, and quote them word for word.
    No one I know reasons that way.

    Perhaps they are individuals who do reason as described in the article you linked, because they are apparently persons who don't seem to be able to reason.
    I am not aware of anyone who reasons the way they paint that picture.
    If you do, I would like to hear them for myself.

    Until you can do that...
    I think the OP would be similar to someone writing an article saying atheist do "house cleaning" in their brain. The first things to go are logic, reason, and common sense, then conscience quickly follow.
    [​IMG]
    Would you like that?

    Or, how about...
    The Circular Reasoning of Atheists
    Google Image Result for https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/lookaside/crawler/media/?media_id=803459993031378

    Just because someone has a view, which they thinks sounds amusing or smart, and they present it as fact, does not mean it actually is.
    Is that not so?
     
  4. Milton Platt

    Milton Platt Well-Known Member
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    Possibilities:
    1. Enjoys the debate
    2. Is interested in how religious people come to their decisions
    3. Has not received answers to his past questions that were logically sound.
    4. Has noticed that he gets more responses from Christians if they feel he is challenging them.
    5. Just wants to prod people to critically examine their beliefs.

    Sure He can add more.....

    Your question could be turned back around on you as a Christian.......why do Christians continually challenge a person's lack of belief in supernatural causes?

    Whether or not anyone's mind gets changes, we all learn a lot about each other.
     
  5. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    I find your threads to be click-bait. Quite honestly. You act like an aggregator of tabloid Atheist websites. there is very little substance. And your commentary after the OP is not useful or unique.
     
  6. AT-AT

    AT-AT Well-Known Member

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    It's an unrelated subject, but my constructive criticism is that I have no problems with this particular thread, but if he wants to talk about the subjects of sex and religion a lot, to divide the threads up into one on "sex" and one on "religion" if possible. As it is, he covers "sex as it applies to religion", when I, for one, would rather talk about either or.

    I hope this advice isn't taken in a negative fashion.
     
  7. dybmh

    dybmh Terminal Optimist
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    Yes, but... sex mixed with religion is more click-baity.
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    There was NO flood.. The Hebrews borrowed a Babylonian myth. In the original story the gods destroyed people in a great flood because they were noisy.
     
  9. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...

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    If you don't appreciate that sort of thing, why are you participating in a religious debate forum? Debate is precisely about arguing for contrary viewpoints. You'd be better of following the Christian faith in a church, than in a debate forum.
     
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  10. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...

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    Interesting, but in two places in the quote, you stopped just a little bit short:

    1. "Believing in a god is nothing more than a choice and that choice is based on faith." But what is that "faith" based on? I think that for the vast majority of people in the world, faith is based on what they were taught before they were old enough to discriminate for themselves, and encouraged to believe by those in whom the necessarily placed the most trust.

    2. "Their faith is a god does exist, your faith is a god doesn't exist. Evidence doesn't support either." But "evidence" comes in two forms, presence and absence. We never convict anyone in court on the basis of an absence of evidence, but rather on the positive identification of evidence that links the accused to the crime. I am assuming you mean that there is no positive evidence that supports either position. For most atheists, on the other hand, the absence of evidence strongly suggests that god does not exist, rather than leading to a conclusion that he does.
     
  11. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Please feel free to ignore me.

    .
     
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  12. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...

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    To think you still believe literally in this flood nonsense! But you do.

    But sorry, here's something that you simply ignore (probably because it would be uncomfortable to include it in your thinking): IF God killed everybody on earth (along with all the animals except 2 (or 7) of each, by the way, who certainly weren't "sinners"), then he also killed all those who were born minutes, hours, days, weeks or months before, who also had no time to rack up "capital crimes" as you put it.

    And that, like it or not, is judicial murder, and IF your dumb flood is true, then God is guilty as charged.
     
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  13. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...

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    The stats at the end of the season...
     
  14. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    You mean the stats they don't keep because everyone gets a trophy :)
     
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  15. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...

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    Maybe, just perhaps, @Skwim is just trying to understand what makes some people believe things that seem impossible to him? Learning through investigation doesn't seem to be a terribly bad thing to me.
     
  16. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Then the converse "Taint common at all".

    That's probably because I had to make it up... you know, just like you admitted to making up yours.


    The major difference being that while millions assert "The Bible isn't true because God says so" or "God isn't true because the Bible says so" I, like @nPeace, have never heard anyone assert "The Bible is true because God says so" and "God is true because the Bible says so".

    You miss the forest for the trees.

    As such, I sincerely doubt you've heard either.
     
  17. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    You are free to believe that the flood is nonsense. I believe the Bible.....you don't.
    We will all find out one day.

    The apostle Paul told married Christians: “The unbelieving husband is sanctified in relation to his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in relation to the brother; otherwise, your children would really be unclean, but now they are holy.” (1 Corinthians 7:14-17)

    Because of the ‘merit’ of the believer, the young children of the union are considered holy, under divine care and protection—not "unclean" as are children who do not have even one believing parent. Children learn what they live and the children of those parents in Noah's day were a really bad role models ensuring that none of their children merited salvation. The children in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah exhibited the same depravity as their parents.....they were not spared either. IMO, this reinforces the importance of teaching children good morals and compliance with God's laws and standards.

    God is the Universal Sovereign of all humans living, whether they accept him as such or not. A Sovereign has the right to dictate to his subjects what is law and what penalties are appropriate in any given circumstance. His subjects do not have a right to dictate their own terms of existence. Rebellion cannot not tolerated....so, we either shape up or we ship out.

    The flood was used by Jesus to picture the situation that would be repeated upon his return (Matthew 24:37-39)....we are seeing it right now. You can deny it all you like....but it doesn't change anything.
     
    #97 Deeje, Jun 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
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  18. Oeste

    Oeste Well-Known Member

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    Where does Ken or the article he quoted claim that chalk cliffs are flood sediment? I can't find either statement.

    There were 4 hypotheses that I am aware of and only one appears to have a slow moving flood. Most model have a rapid influx of water:

    Black Sea models.jpg

    Four different hypotheses for the Black Sea-Lake level currently exist (see illustration above). One hypothesis assigns the maximum regression to 18,000 14C years, followed by a gradual transgression to the Black Sea outlet (placed at 35 mbsl) and completed before entry of saltwater (Kuprin et al., 1974, Kaplin and Shecherbakov, 1986, Pirazzoli, 1996, Kaplin and Selivanov, 2004, Balbanov, 2007, Sorokin and Kuprin, 2007). A second hypothesis places the maximum regression at 11,000 14C years, recognized as the Younger Dryas period of the late Pleistocene, followed by a rapid freshwater transgression ending at ~ 10,000 14C years ago at the level of the outlet (Bosporus sill) and also completed prior to the connection of the Mediterranean Sea with the Black Sea-Lake (Aksu et al., 2002, Hiscott et al., 2002, Hiscott et al., 2007a, Hiscott et al., 2007b). Yanko-Hombach et al. (2014) and Mudie et al. (2014) have proposed that the surface of the Black Sea-Lake was never lower than 30 mbsl in the early Holocene prior to its evolution to a sea. A third hypothesis also recognizes a regression in the Younger Dryas period, but one that persists into the Preboreal and ends with an abrupt transgression exclusively caused by a cascade of Mediterranean saltwater that begins when the rise of external eustatic sea level reaches the inlet (Lericolais et al., 2007, Nicholas et al., 2011). A fourth hypothesis recognizes a significant regression confined to the Preboreal period, immediately before the rapid transgression from the entry of Mediterranean water (Dimitrov, 1982, Ryan et al., 1997, Major et al., 2002, Ryan et al., 2003, Dimitrov and Dimitrov, 2004, Ryan, 2007, Dimitrov, 2010).​

    I'm not claiming a particular hypothesis wrong, but the latest model from Colombia University (US), Bulgarian Academy of Sciences (Bulgaria), Varna Regional Museum of History (Bulgaria) and the Weizmann Institute of Science (Israel) support previous rapid flow models which would not have given families "plenty of time" to move to higher ground.

    "The flux through the Bosporus at the time of the transgression is likely to have been rapid rather than gradual as erosion, similar to phenomena observed during dam breakage, would increase the depth and width of the inlet allowing more and more water to enter from the Mediterranean." Source. (Marine Geology, volume 383, 1/1/17 pgs 14-34)
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    See #64 and how the Grand Canyon was cut in a few days.
     
  20. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    All I "admitted" to was creating the specific circle I posted, not the idea of the circle. As anyone familiar with circular reasoning knows, this one's been around for a long time.

    Here are three examples

    [​IMG] circular reasoning god bible.png

    [​IMG]

    But it's nice to see you fess up to your fib that your made up circle was "another common claim" :D




    .
     
    #100 Skwim, Jun 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
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