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Featured The Power Of Circular Reasoning

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by Skwim, Jun 21, 2019.

  1. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    If you believe your child is good at soccer while everyone else thinks your child sucks, who is correct, your belief or the opinion of others?
     
  2. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    You're using the word belief like blind faith. I'm using the word belief to simply mean acceptance that a proposition is true. So in that case, while it's true lots of people believe things without evidence, the question is, should they? Shouldn't our beliefs be based on the evidence? Why would we believe something for which there is no (or no good) evidence?

    Clearly, if we care about what's true/real we should strive for our beliefs to align with what we have good evidence for.

    If you believe something exists that's unfalsifiable, you're committing a logical fallacy. Which, again, is a bad idea if you care about what's actually true/real.

    You chose your favorite food? I didn't. I just ate things until I spontaneously found something that my taste buds appreciated. I couldn't just choose to start enjoying a food I don't enjoy. Same with colors. My favorite color is the one that just naturally pleases my aesthetic taste. I couldn't just decide tomorrow morning that my favorite color was going to be baby poop yellow. I could say that, but I'd be lying.
     
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  3. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    Probably the opinion of others. Isn't that obvious?
     
  4. Left Coast

    Left Coast Active Member
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    I know this may seem counter-intuitive to you as a theist, but having no guarantee of tomorrow actually makes you appreciate and enjoy the present more. There are no do overs, no second chances. Our lives, and this very moment, are precious and valuable precisely because they are only here for a short time, and then gone.

    Jehovah has the power to ensure they never get that disability or terminal illness in the first place. Yet he doesn't. Promising people an unprovable afterlife because they have a terrible life in this world is, frankly, an empty promise.

    I depend on lots of people. And lots of people depend on me. We're in this life together. That's part of what makes humanity beautiful.

    Empathy and desire for pleasure.

    My desire is for the truth, whether it feels good or makes all my dreams come true or not. There are countless threads on this forum alone alleging to show evidence for a Creator. I haven't seen it. If you have good evidence, I'm happy to see it.

    Evasion. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate the claim. If you think a global flood happened let's see the evidence.

    Because floods happen all over the world.

    I have no doubt there were large floods in the past that may have planted the seed for the myth. That doesn't mean there actually was a flood of the entire earth, however. There is zero geological evidence for such a thing.

    Babies committed capital crimes?

    Oh give me a break. He murdered people for disobeying him.

    If any world leader did that today, we'd call them worse than a tyrant.

    What kind of psychopathic leader makes disobedience a capital crime? And just because you create a life doesn't give you the right to destroy it. Is that how you feel about parents and their children?

    We have zero evidence for this.

    Again, no, that is completely repugnant. Is that how you want our society to work, right now? Everyone who breaks any of Jehovah's rules gets executed? You want me to be executed?
     
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  5. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

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    In this case we're talking about a demonstrated pattern of behaviour. Skwim is pretty blatantly anti-Christian.

    I am Christian, but willing to discuss flaws in Christian theology. Skwim is just here to tell people he thinks they're stupid, though. IMHO.
     
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  6. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Yes but it won't over ride the belief you have in your child.
     
  7. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Belief is faith/blind faith.
    -belief in god
    -belief your child is great
    -belief your marriage is happy
    -ect.
     
  8. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Obviously not at all.

    When Christians stop telling the rest of the world what they think is morally wrong with it, and what everyone has to do to fix themselves, AND they stop interfering in our secular life then perhaps I will. And if my posts happen to "pull down those who wish to follow the Christian faith" maybe they need to shore up their belief and go to church once in awhile. Just sayin'.

    Thing is, no one here is obligated to read anything anyone writes or respond to it. And if you find my posts too challenging then I suggest you stick with the choir; the Christian related DIR forums.

    .

    .
     
  9. Amanaki

    Amanaki Well-Known Member

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    I dont mind the Christians or any other religion, but i will stand up for those who get trashed. I might be wrong but it sounds to me like you get upset with Christians because they have moral guidelines they try to live by, and because some actually try to help people to understand the morality, non-believers get upset and take it personally when the Christians do what they were told to do by Jesus, to preach what the teaching says.
    As a Buddhist, i see the truth I the other religions too and have no problem talking with them.
    I do not find your posts challenging at all, but i have seen a trend for some time, in the form more and more non-believers attacking religious people. But the commandments for the Christians are ment for them, so if you do not wish to follow their commandments, of course, you do not need to do it, but why not accept that religious people has their way of living.

    The strange thing is that when religious people say something toward non-believers they get mad because then it is the religious person who steps on the foot of someone who does not believe.
    Why in your opinion is it so that non-believers ca say things about religious people, but religious peoples can not say something about non-believers?
     
  10. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Your exaggeration here aside, I'm sorry I disappointed you and failed to discuss something that interested you. But to make amends I'll try to discuss whatever you wish. Can't guarantee I'll stick with it if it starts to flag or goes off track, but I'll give it a shot.

    I Kangaroo Feathers want to talk about ________________________________________________________ .

    Ball's in your court KF. What's it going to be?

    .
     
  11. stvdv

    stvdv Well-Known Member

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    Did you invent this one yourself?
    If so, then you are very creative
    If not, then it's a nice one to sharpen one's discrimination
    (and you put it in a very stylish not belittling way ... well done)
     
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  12. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    I love how christians are defending their right to use circular reasoning so i will give it a go in its simplest form

    I am god because i say i am god and all other claims of gods are void because god says so and ... Go to start of paragraph.
     
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  13. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    I don't get upset about anything Christians say or do, UNLESS, that is, it impacts secular aspects of our lives. You're confusing taking up a challenge with getting mad, and there's a HUGE! difference.

    You do realize do you not that RF bills itself as a debate site, and as such in some forums participants are expected to take up opposing sides, which means . . . well I'm sure you can figure it out.

    Again, you're mistaking "taking up a challenge" for "getting mad." Personally, the only time I've ever come close to getting mad with anyone here is when I've been frustrated by those who debate dishonestly, or refuse to follow a logical train of thought.

    Who says they can't? There have been many times well informed Christians have taken non-believers to task, and have prevailed.

    Stick around for while.

    .
     
    #33 Skwim, Jun 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  14. Deeje

    Deeje Avid Bible Student
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    That's OK for you, but what about those who need a 'do over'...those who suffer irreparable brain damage or severe physical disability in an accident? What about those who completely mess up their lives because of the bad influence of others and need a 'do over'....you think no one deserves that? That makes what God is offering preferable to what you expect to happen IMO.

    If that is what you think, then you have no idea why he doesn't interfere with this life until the end. There is a reason for all of it...a very important reason. He is God so he knows what he's doing.

    He is able to judge people by the way they live this life without any interference from him....he observes those who seek his guidance and those who don't want it. Living this life without his interference is exactly how he determines who gets the reward and who doesn't. We tell God exactly who we are by the choices we make.

    I see that you are fond of making these statement only from your own viewpoint.....what about others? Have you no thought for those who don't experience any 'beautiful humanity'? Ask the children of Syria if they would like a hope for a better life in the future? Or the children in the slums of India or Asia sold for sex slavery? How beautiful is humanity for them? Or perhaps the children starving in African nations....God is not responsible for any of that....humans are.

    No, I prefer to call it "programming"....we are designed to live in beautiful surrounding with our families forever. Death is still a foreign element in our lives and we continue to grieve even over the death of a beloved pet. How are we not programmed to accept death since it has always happened? Isn't that what evolution is supposed to do....to make us adapt to things that we can't change? Why do we grieve....sometimes for decades?

    My guess is that you probably never will. The evidence for God's existence is all around you but like many who have been blinded by science, you can't see it, or don't want to acknowledge it.The truth is...nothing comes from nothing.

    If people don't want to know God, why would he want to know them? He gave us life...he owes us nothing more. He lets us make all our own choices and to create our own world.....look what we have done! Are you proud of humanity? We rejected his rulership in the beginning, but that doesn't mean that its gone forever....he has just given the human race, enough rope.....

    I gave you the evidence. The flood legend is found all over the world in very diverse cultures. Only a real event of monumental proportions could permeate human thinking to that extent.

    In all cultures, this is a global deluge with just a few saved in a vessel.....the detail may be a little different with cultural embellishment, but the bones of the story are the same.

    Someone once asked me what I would do if I came across the web of a very venomous spider with an egg sac full of babies....they asked if I would kill the parents and spare the babies? What would they grow up to become?
    Living in that pre-flood world we see that every human inclination was rotten to the core. (Genesis 6:5-8) There were no humans who had not been corrupted by their wicked lifestyle. Since God was going to execute their parents, did you want a whole generation of young children left as orphans? Who would take care of them? And if God is going to restore the lives of these people in the future, wouldn't you want the parents and children to come back together to start again? (John 5:28-29)

    Yes, because they were offending him with their licentious and violent lifestyle....and because he is God. If you look back at the scenario in Eden you will see that continued life was dependent upon obedience to God right from day one. It was the only thing that God asked of them. He murdered no one.

    LOL....God is not a flawed human leader....he is the Creator of life and this universe which gives him sovereign rights to tell all of us what to do with the gift of life that he gave to us. If we don't want the gift, then he will take it back. It was always conditional anyway. So I think that's fair enough?

    Did you make that up? The Creator has every right to take life away from those who abuse his gift and make life a horrible experience for others. Too bad if people don't like it.....they hardly get a choice in that. If they qualify to keep living, God will grant them life...if they don't, by their own choice, they will forfeit what they had. Again, I see that as fair. He has given us every opportunity to prove who we are.

    The Bible is full of such evidence. You just don't believe it....or don't want to.

    Well, that is not my call...I am not your judge. God's laws apply to all...we don't get to pick and choose. Could it be that people with some kind of privileged attitude that they have a right to life without any appreciation for its Maker or his rules, might just be repugnant to God?

    He is our Landlord and we are his tenants.....if we break the tenancy agreement then eviction will follow.
     
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  15. Skwim

    Skwim Veteran Member

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    Thank you. I, in fact, did create it. I used a program called CSSWRAP.

    .
     
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  16. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    Just because the god character in the Bible is quoted as saying something doesn't mean it has any veracity. God seems like a very human production to me with all the worst human characteristics.

    Some Biblical literalists claim to know exactly what god is supposed to be thinking, funny how it closely coincides with their thoughts too.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
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  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Its a myth.. The civilization of Sumer was not affected by Noah's flood.
     
  18. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    I think it was more than just the analysis that he was talking about-- as he/she said:

    It is talking about the continuity of the same and not the apologetics.

    Not to mention the fact that there is a circular reasoning to @Skwim 's OP. His circular proposition is true because Skwim says so and because Skwim says so the proposition is true because the proposition is true because Skwim says so.
     
    #38 KenS, Jun 22, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
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  19. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    So... if you believe what you says true, are you using manipulative BS and we should call you out on it?
     
  20. KenS

    KenS Well-Known Member

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    Assuming the dating was correct.
     
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