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Featured The Power of a Message of Peace is Unfolding.

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by TransmutingSoul, Sep 21, 2022.

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  1. No it is not possible!

    60.0%
  2. Yes it can be!

    13.3%
  3. I offer another alternative

    26.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Vinayaka

    Vinayaka devotee
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    A hundred and fifty guys all arguing "I'm your GUY" speaks to that unreliability.
     
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  2. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Exactly.
     
  3. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    The Messengers are more than Human. They are pre-existing.

    Regards Tony
     
  4. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    Cults, people fasting, dehydrated, on drugs like mushrooms, also have visions. Also confirmation bias. A man called in to a show with evidence of the afterlife, he was thinking of his dead brother and a painting on the wall fell down.
    That was the evidence. Enough to call a show. He never thought to re-hang the picture and think of his brother again, maybe just test the hypothesis?
     
  5. joelr

    joelr Well-Known Member

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    The messengers are more than human. But they get every piece of science they give wrong. They can't give any new philosophy. Or old philosophy? What exactly is "more than human" in those text. What writing is a human incapable of?
     
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  6. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    Lots of people have started religious movements and have gotten thousands, even millions of followers. But, other than their followers, who believes they are for real. L. Ron Hubbard, Joseph Smith, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and yes, Mírzá Husayn ‘Alí, aka Baha'u'llah all have started religious movements. I'm sure they have helped many of their followers become more spiritual. But is everything these people have said true? I would not be surprised if most of them rejected the other ones.
     
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  7. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    And are the stories told about them reliable? Even Baha'is reject some of the things, like some of the miracles. A major one that is rejected by Baha'is is the resurrection of Jesus. Sure, no problem. How unlikely is it? But after we subtract all the "unlikely" things allegedly done by Jesus and other prophets, what is left? Supposedly the truth?

    When you say "messengers" I'm assuming you mean people Baha'is call "manifestations". Because I think the word "angels" means "messenger".
    In the Bible, angels are heavenly beings commissioned by God for special jobs both in heaven and on earth. Their primary duty is to be intermediaries between God and man. The word angel comes from the Greek word ”anggelos,” meaning ”messenger.”
    So how do you define a "manifestation"? And, like I've asked many times before, does Adam, Noah, Abraham and even Moses fit that definition? And can you show any Biblical reason to make any of them more than just ordinary men?
     
  8. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    They do not come as scientists, they come to guide us to find our spiritual self.

    All that science can find, the apex of scientific discovery, is that there is only God. So Faith and Science are in this reality the wings of one bird.

    Science and faith are a gift, only when used to progress the conciousness of humanity in finding unity of purpose.

    Regards Tony
     
  9. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    That is not correct CG, that is your take, not a Baha'i's.

    We look at this with different frames of references.

    Regards Tony
     
  10. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    I posted this to you before. 'Tablet of the Universe'

    Tablet of the Universe (Lawh-i-Aflákiyyih)

    When you read the opening paragraph, the answer is given to your question.

    "Praise be to God Who hath ever caused His Names and Attributes to penetrate the degrees of existence....."

    Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and all the Names of all the Messengers are pre-existing at that very moment.

    "....Who hath made the effects of those Names and Attributes to shine resplendent and their signs to be firmly established in both the hidden and manifest worlds..."

    All those Names and Attributes are the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and the End. The FIRST CAUSE.

    "........By them He hath made the holy realities that are informed by His grace and are the recipients of His outpourings to be the sole revealers of all that pertaineth unto Him, and hath caused them to move through the firmament of perfection in arcs of descent and ascent. He hath ordained these Names and Attributes to be the first and foremost origin and cause of being in the world of creation and the source of the different grades of realities in the degrees of existence...."

    Those Names, all the Messengers, one and all become the 'Self of God' to us in this world, this matrix we live in.

    They are all of the same One God, they One and All gave a Message from God.

    CG, can that be any clearer than written in that Tablet? What else can we offer?

    Regards Tony
     
    #290 TransmutingSoul, Nov 26, 2022
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2022
  11. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    The floor is yours,please explain.
     
  12. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Stories are great,Jack and the Beanstalk,Beowulf,Robin Hood they are all relayed by the fallible human.
     
  13. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    This is what's not correct?

    Then what do Baha'is believe about Moses' cane turning in to a snake? Or Lot's wife being turned into a pillar of salt? Or the Egyptian army being drowned when the parted seas came back together. And then the supposed miracles of Jesus. Do Baha'is believe he cast demons out of a man? Or raised Lazarus from the dead? Did Jesus really walk on water? The Baha'i "different" frame of reference is that these stories, including the resurrection, are not literally true.
    In studying the Bible Bahá’ís must bear two principles in mind. The first is that many passages in Sacred Scriptures are intended to be taken metaphorically, not literally, and some of the paradoxes and apparent contradictions which appear are intended to indicate this. The second is the fact that the text of the early Scriptures, such as the Bible, is not wholly authentic.

    The Universal House of Justice, 1987 Sept 14, Resurrection of Christ

    The Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body; and when after three days the disciples became assured and steadfast, and began to serve the Cause of Christ, and resolved to spread the divine teachings, putting His counsels into practice, and arising to serve Him, the Reality of Christ became resplendent and His bounty appeared; His religion found life; His teachings and His admonitions became evident and visible. In other words, the Cause of Christ was like a lifeless body until the life and the bounty of the Holy Spirit surrounded it.

    Such is the meaning of the resurrection of Christ, and this was a true resurrection....
    "Some Answered Questions"
    So, if I'm not correct in saying that the Baha'is don't believe some of these miracles in the Bible literally, then what is the correct answer? ​
     
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  14. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    So, because he says this, it means this?

    Yet, they are not pre-existing in the Bible. Why do they even need to be pre-existing? It's only a Baha'i belief. For me, I don't even necessarily believe those people were even historically real. And Baha'is don't even necessarily believe the Bible stories about them. If the story is fiction, why believe the people in the story are real? Only because it is what your religion teaches.

    Adam, not really the first man. His falling? What do Baha'is believe about that? Christians believe it caused sin to enter the world. That's not something that a manifestation would want to be known for.

    Then Noah, did the flood really happen? Did he get drunk?
    According to Genesis 9:20–21, at some point after the flood, Noah planted a vineyard, produced wine, and became drunk. Not only did he become drunk, but he was naked inside his tent. What followed was the sin of Ham (and possibly Canaan). This is an uncomfortable episode in Noah’s life, but it serves as a reminder that even those saved by the grace of God are prone to sin (Genesis 8:21). It’s also a powerful warning about how just one careless decision can destroy the reputation of even the most godly man or woman.
    But whatever you need to believe is just great... for you. I think there is way too many inconsistencies in the Baha'i beliefs and claims.

     
  15. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    Yeah, even if there is proof that such a person really lived, why believe all the fantastic stories written about them? And I still say that Baha'is don't believe those stories. They make the stories of those unbelievable events symbolic. Which to me means, fictional. Which to me, makes it myth and legends. If that's what Baha'is meant, then I'd agree with them. But they use "symbolic" to make things in the Bible true... just not "literally" true.

    That's something I don't believe is true. I think those stories were written to be believed as being literally true. Or, if Jews and Christians want to say that their Scriptures are fictional, and that the true meaning of those stories is their symbolic meaning, I'll go with that. But, until they do that, I'm going with the writers wrote those things to be believed as true by the followers of those religions.
     
  16. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    We do not reject the miracles CG. To say more repeats numerous old conversations we have had.

    Mostly the miracles have deep eternal meanings. Most likely Jesus did bring a dead man back to life, similar things happen with each Messenger.

    What is the point of bringing a dead man back to life though CG, when death will only again result.

    The whole wisdom behind that mirical is our spiritual birth, to be born again where death does not overtake us. The scriptures have many passages outside the miracle to explain this.

    Why do you thing Jesus asked the disciples to tell no one? Yet they disobeyed and Jesus had to give many more passages to explain that wisdom.

    Regards Tony
     
  17. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    We witness this CG, it confirms the Messengers.

    Regards Tony
     
  18. CG Didymus

    CG Didymus Veteran Member

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    They have a plan for peace. They want the people of the world to listen to them and adopt that plan. But why should the people of the world listen to them? Do they have any credibility? You've investigated their scientific claims and found them lacking. I've looked at, and I'd imagine you have too, their claims of fulfilled prophecies? Lacking. Their claims of progressive revelation? Lacking. Other than that, they are a fine religion... only if their claims were believable... that is... to people other than themselves.
     
  19. TransmutingSoul

    TransmutingSoul Veteran Member
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    The Bible is full of this concept CG, many a passage.

    Isaiah 45:12
    "I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host"

    Who are the "Hosts". I will off that Baha'u'llah is the 'Lord of Hosts', the purpose of this age is that all the Hosts (Messengers) have become One under One God.

    The Summons of the Lord of Hosts | Bahá’í Reference Library

    Again

    Hebrews 11:3
    "By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible"

    That Word is all the Names of God, the Messengers, notice what is seen is made by that Word!

    Creation has a Cause, that Cause is Christ (Annointed Ones(

    Ephesians 2:10
    "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."

    Thus by faith we walk in that Spirit which is from God, we walk in the Light of the Messengers.

    Regards Tony
     
  20. England my lionheart

    England my lionheart Rockerjahili Rebel
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    Proof,the bane of all religions.
     
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