The Possibility of Chauvin Being Found Not Guilty

[Nakosis]

Last week, Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman filed third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter charges against Derek Chauvin, the Minneapolis police officer who knelt on George Floyd’s neck for nine minutes, even as Floyd lay dying. Many people who have watched the video, or read a description of it, might assume that a conviction will be easy or that Freeman should have filed more serious charges. Floyd was not resisting, and in fact was begging for his life. Chauvin refused to relent—even after his partners suggested they move Floyd, even after Floyd passed out and died. There is no justification for Chauvin’s actions. The degree of cruelty and callousness he displayed are astounding. I think the murder and manslaughter charges filed by Freeman were appropriate, and given the video evidence of Chauvin’s brutality, a conviction is likely.

Nonetheless, for both factual and legal reasons, this prosecution is more complicated than it may seem. Chauvin was rightfully fired, Floyd’s family will easily win a civil judgment for excessive force, and Chauvin could be found guilty of federal civil rights crimes—but it is less certain that Chauvin will be convicted of homicide under Minnesota law. There is a large legal space between the definition of excessive force and the definition of homicide.
Derek Chauvin’s Actions Were Cruel. But a Conviction Won’t Come Easily.

How likely is it that Chauvin will not be convicted of murder?

I suspect a lot depends on the judge.

If the trial gets covered by the media, will you be watching?
Can America afford to find Chauvin not guilty?
I think probably not but should that be a consideration of the judge?

 

[Windwalker]

What I'm wondering is if he is convicted, if Donald Trump will pardon him? After all, he pardoned this murderer: Navy Seal pardoned of war crimes by Trump described by colleagues as 'freaking evil'

I'm sure later on he'll view Chauvin as an American hero. "Very fine people on both sides".

 

[BSM1]

Last week, Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman filed third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter charges against Derek Chauvin, the Minneapolis police officer who knelt on George Floyd’s neck for nine minutes, even as Floyd lay dying. Many people who have watched the video, or read a description of it, might assume that a conviction will be easy or that Freeman should have filed more serious charges. Floyd was not resisting, and in fact was begging for his life. Chauvin refused to relent—even after his partners suggested they move Floyd, even after Floyd passed out and died. There is no justification for Chauvin’s actions. The degree of cruelty and callousness he displayed are astounding. I think the murder and manslaughter charges filed by Freeman were appropriate, and given the video evidence of Chauvin’s brutality, a conviction is likely.

Nonetheless, for both factual and legal reasons, this prosecution is more complicated than it may seem. Chauvin was rightfully fired, Floyd’s family will easily win a civil judgment for excessive force, and Chauvin could be found guilty of federal civil rights crimes—but it is less certain that Chauvin will be convicted of homicide under Minnesota law. There is a large legal space between the definition of excessive force and the definition of homicide.
Derek Chauvin’s Actions Were Cruel. But a Conviction Won’t Come Easily.

How likely is it that Chauvin will not be convicted of murder?

I suspect a lot depends on the judge.

If the trial gets covered by the media, will you be watching?
Can America afford to find Chauvin not guilty?
I think probably not but should that be a consideration of the judge?

So you think we should sacrifice Chauvin to the mob even though his actions may not meet the criteria of the law when it comes to homicide? Suppose he was black and this was a white man who died?

 

[Windwalker]

So you think we should sacrifice Chauvin to the mob even though his actions may not meet the criteria of the law when it comes to homicide? Suppose he was black and this was a white man who died?

He would be sentenced, and not let go. That happens here in MN. In the last four police homicides on innocent civilians, three were found not guilty, and only one was found guilty and sentenced to 12 years. Guess what color his skin was? Guess what color of skin the person he killed was?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Can America afford to find Chauvin not guilty?

I am terrified of that outcome. The rioting we've seen now will pale in comparison.

Guess what color his skin was? Guess what color of skin the person who was killed was?

Brown? Red? (They too get massacred by the police)

 

[bobhikes]

Last week, Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman filed third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter charges against Derek Chauvin, the Minneapolis police officer who knelt on George Floyd’s neck for nine minutes, even as Floyd lay dying. Many people who have watched the video, or read a description of it, might assume that a conviction will be easy or that Freeman should have filed more serious charges. Floyd was not resisting, and in fact was begging for his life. Chauvin refused to relent—even after his partners suggested they move Floyd, even after Floyd passed out and died. There is no justification for Chauvin’s actions. The degree of cruelty and callousness he displayed are astounding. I think the murder and manslaughter charges filed by Freeman were appropriate, and given the video evidence of Chauvin’s brutality, a conviction is likely.

Nonetheless, for both factual and legal reasons, this prosecution is more complicated than it may seem. Chauvin was rightfully fired, Floyd’s family will easily win a civil judgment for excessive force, and Chauvin could be found guilty of federal civil rights crimes—but it is less certain that Chauvin will be convicted of homicide under Minnesota law. There is a large legal space between the definition of excessive force and the definition of homicide.
Derek Chauvin’s Actions Were Cruel. But a Conviction Won’t Come Easily.

How likely is it that Chauvin will not be convicted of murder?

I suspect a lot depends on the judge.

If the trial gets covered by the media, will you be watching?
Can America afford to find Chauvin not guilty?
I think probably not but should that be a consideration of the judge?

Personally I believe this is larger then Chauvin now. Chauvin is just the straw that broke the camels back. Things are going to have to change for the protest to settle and there may yet be violence. MLK took the peaceful approach and lost his life, Malcom X was all about a physical threat as well. Who do we have that is going to lead this protest and will they be peaceful or not? To be honest it is going to be up to Trump. If he gets fed up and calls on the military to squash things we will end up in a civil war. If he just keeps tweeting and doing photo ops we should be able to make it to the election.

 

[sun rise]

So you think we should sacrifice Chauvin to the mob even though his actions may not meet the criteria of the law when it comes to homicide? Suppose he was black and this was a white man who died?

We've seen studies where people were asked about crimes where the perp was black and the victim white and visa versa. And more, that has been studied and it was shown that blacks suffer in the criminal justice system:

University of Michigan Law School
University of Michigan Law School Scholarship Repository
2014 Racial Disparity in Federal Criminal Sentences
https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2413&context=articles

 

[Sunstone]

I think if you go by the history of these things, you are likely to conclude that Chauvin would be acquitted if the trial only had the normal publicity these trials tend to get.

 

[exchemist]

Last week, Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman filed third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter charges against Derek Chauvin, the Minneapolis police officer who knelt on George Floyd’s neck for nine minutes, even as Floyd lay dying. Many people who have watched the video, or read a description of it, might assume that a conviction will be easy or that Freeman should have filed more serious charges. Floyd was not resisting, and in fact was begging for his life. Chauvin refused to relent—even after his partners suggested they move Floyd, even after Floyd passed out and died. There is no justification for Chauvin’s actions. The degree of cruelty and callousness he displayed are astounding. I think the murder and manslaughter charges filed by Freeman were appropriate, and given the video evidence of Chauvin’s brutality, a conviction is likely.

Nonetheless, for both factual and legal reasons, this prosecution is more complicated than it may seem. Chauvin was rightfully fired, Floyd’s family will easily win a civil judgment for excessive force, and Chauvin could be found guilty of federal civil rights crimes—but it is less certain that Chauvin will be convicted of homicide under Minnesota law. There is a large legal space between the definition of excessive force and the definition of homicide.
Derek Chauvin’s Actions Were Cruel. But a Conviction Won’t Come Easily.

How likely is it that Chauvin will not be convicted of murder?

I suspect a lot depends on the judge.

If the trial gets covered by the media, will you be watching?
Can America afford to find Chauvin not guilty?
I think probably not but should that be a consideration of the judge?

Hmm, good point, especially now that the charge has been intensified from 3rd degree to 2nd degree. I would have expected the prosecutors to file several charges, so that if the most severe one does not stick he can still be found guilty of a lesser one such as manslaughter. But I don't know the US system.

 

[sun rise]

Personally I believe this is larger then Chauvin now. Chauvin is just the straw that broke the camels back. Things are going to have to change for the protest to settle and there may yet be violence. MLK took the peaceful approach and lost his life, Malcom X was all about a physical threat as well. Who do we have that is going to lead this protest and will they be peaceful or not? To be honest it is going to be up to Trump. If he gets fed up and calls on the military to squash things we will end up in a civil war. If he just keeps tweeting and doing photo ops we should be able to make it to the election.

Yes, there was an automatic reaction to a white man with his knee on a black man's neck that invoked generations of discrimination where white symbolically had their knees on black folk's necks. The symbolism was stark and we've seen the reaction.

I think trump is a weak blowhard so will back off his threat. But if he does not, I expect the Secretary of Defense to refuse, for trump to fire him and to have deep divisions in the military about obeying such an order or perhaps wholesale refusal to obey that order.

We are close to the abyss.

 

[sun rise]

Hmm, good point, especially now that the charge has been intensified from 3rd degree to 2nd degree. I would have expected the prosecutors to file several charges, so that if the most severe one does not stick he can still be found guilty of a lesser one such as manslaughter. But I don't know the US system.

I believe you're right.

 

[exchemist]

Yes, there was an automatic reaction to a white man with his knee on a black man's neck that invoked generations of discrimination where white symbolically had their knees on black folk's necks. The symbolism was stark and we've seen the reaction.

I think trump is a weak blowhard so will back off his threat. But if he does not, I expect the Secretary of Defense to refuse, for trump to fire him and to have deep divisions in the military about obeying such an order or perhaps wholesale refusal to obey that order.

We are close to the abyss.

Yes I think the statements by Mullen and Mattis are almost certainly made on behalf of the serving military, who cannot say such things themselves. Esper's reaction shows the generals have told him privately that it's a non-starter.

Trump doesn't actually mean half the things he says, flip-flopping from one day to the next in ludicrous fashion. It will have been all about creating an image of "toughness" on the spur of the moment - his own heel spurs notwithstanding.

By the way this video of Mattis, having some fun at Trump's expense at a charity dinner, is jolly funny if you have not seen it:

Mattis mocks Trump at gala dinner

I mean, where does Trump get off telling a 4 star general in the US Marines - one of the toughest fighting forces in the world - that he is a crap soldier? It's farcical.

 

[Vinayaka]

Last week, Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman filed third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter charges against Derek Chauvin, the Minneapolis police officer who knelt on George Floyd’s neck for nine minutes, even as Floyd lay dying. Many people who have watched the video, or read a description of it, might assume that a conviction will be easy or that Freeman should have filed more serious charges. Floyd was not resisting, and in fact was begging for his life. Chauvin refused to relent—even after his partners suggested they move Floyd, even after Floyd passed out and died. There is no justification for Chauvin’s actions. The degree of cruelty and callousness he displayed are astounding. I think the murder and manslaughter charges filed by Freeman were appropriate, and given the video evidence of Chauvin’s brutality, a conviction is likely.

Nonetheless, for both factual and legal reasons, this prosecution is more complicated than it may seem. Chauvin was rightfully fired, Floyd’s family will easily win a civil judgment for excessive force, and Chauvin could be found guilty of federal civil rights crimes—but it is less certain that Chauvin will be convicted of homicide under Minnesota law. There is a large legal space between the definition of excessive force and the definition of homicide.
Derek Chauvin’s Actions Were Cruel. But a Conviction Won’t Come Easily.

How likely is it that Chauvin will not be convicted of murder?

I suspect a lot depends on the judge.

If the trial gets covered by the media, will you be watching?
Can America afford to find Chauvin not guilty?
I think probably not but should that be a consideration of the judge?

I strongly suspect he'll get off. That's been the history. Why should it change now? in a few months things will settle down and go back to 'normal'.

 

[Revoltingest]

What I'm wondering is if he is convicted, if Donald Trump will pardon him? After all, he pardoned this murderer: Navy Seal pardoned of war crimes by Trump described by colleagues as 'freaking evil'

I'm sure later on he'll view Chauvin as an American hero. "Very fine people on both sides".

Be careful with predictions.

 

[Revoltingest]

I strongly suspect he'll get off. That's been the history. Why should it change now? in a few months things will settle down and go back to 'normal'.

I'll bet you 10 frubals he'll be convicted.
But I won't give you odds.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Last week, Hennepin County Attorney Mike Freeman filed third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter charges against Derek Chauvin, the Minneapolis police officer who knelt on George Floyd’s neck for nine minutes, even as Floyd lay dying. Many people who have watched the video, or read a description of it, might assume that a conviction will be easy or that Freeman should have filed more serious charges. Floyd was not resisting, and in fact was begging for his life. Chauvin refused to relent—even after his partners suggested they move Floyd, even after Floyd passed out and died. There is no justification for Chauvin’s actions. The degree of cruelty and callousness he displayed are astounding. I think the murder and manslaughter charges filed by Freeman were appropriate, and given the video evidence of Chauvin’s brutality, a conviction is likely.

Nonetheless, for both factual and legal reasons, this prosecution is more complicated than it may seem. Chauvin was rightfully fired, Floyd’s family will easily win a civil judgment for excessive force, and Chauvin could be found guilty of federal civil rights crimes—but it is less certain that Chauvin will be convicted of homicide under Minnesota law. There is a large legal space between the definition of excessive force and the definition of homicide.
Derek Chauvin’s Actions Were Cruel. But a Conviction Won’t Come Easily.

How likely is it that Chauvin will not be convicted of murder?

I suspect a lot depends on the judge.

If the trial gets covered by the media, will you be watching?
Can America afford to find Chauvin not guilty?
I think probably not but should that be a consideration of the judge?

such a case will most likely be argued before a jury, and the judge will do little more than administer the case, keep both sides in line, and set the sentence if needed.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'll bet you 10 frubals he'll be convicted.
But I won't give you odds.

On top of the millions you already give me?

 

[Windwalker]

Be careful with predictions.

It doesn't take prophetic insight to make predictions based upon past behavioral patterns. I do I am wrong. But I don't think his cynicism has begun to reach its limits yet. I think he's just warming up.

 

[BSM1]

He would be sentenced, and not let go. That happens here in MN. In the last four police homicides on innocent civilians, three were found not guilty, and only one was found guilty and sentenced to 12 years. Guess what color his skin was? Guess what color of skin the person he killed was?

We've seen studies where people were asked about crimes where the perp was black and the victim white and visa versa. And more, that has been studied and it was shown that blacks suffer in the criminal justice system:

University of Michigan Law School
University of Michigan Law School Scholarship Repository
2014 Racial Disparity in Federal Criminal Sentences
https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2413&context=articles

This was not the question, If there is not enough evidence to convict Chauvin on murder charges, do we still publicly lynch him just to appease the rioting mobs?

 

[Revoltingest]

This was not the question, If there is not enough evidence to convict Chauvin on murder charges, do we still publicly lynch him just to appease the rioting mobs?

I see plenty of evidence to convict him of wrongful death.
But court is a crapshoot.
So there questions....
- Will conviction happen?
- Conviction of which charges?