The Pope of Rome is Antichrist

[Brian Schuh]

A historicist interpretation of the book of Daniel and the Revelation obviously point to the papacy as the beast and the pope as antichrist. That it is so compelling, the papacy reacted to this approach of interpretation by teaching preterism, which is equally as compelling, if not more so.

What I noticed about the book of Daniel, if you follow the progression of the four kingdoms, Neo-Babylonian Empire, Medo-Persian Empire, Greek Empire, Pagan and then Papal Rome, which split into two empires, west and east. Around the end of all these empires, Adolf Hitler- from killing the first Jews in the death camps to when they were liberated, was just about 3 1/2 years. And then modern Israel was created. It just makes sense to me that Hitler was the little horn that waged war against the saints (the chosen that is.) And that modern Israel is that kingdom that shall never end.

It doesn't really matter to me how you interpret the book of Daniel, it just has been traditionally interpreted by the early Protestants to point to the pope as antichrist. Preterism is worth studying, although it makes some bold claims as well.

 

[Katzpur]

Properly the world is worshipping the Pope by keeping Sunday -the day of his appointment - holy.

Oh, a Seventh Day Adventist, huh? Well, I keep Sunday holy because that is the day Jesus Christ rose from the dead. You need to sit down, take a deep breath, and start working on that beam in your eye.

 

[metis]

The question is - How do you explain the words of Jesus? It is one thing to say you love Jesus but a different thing to say He did not mean what He said. Do you love Him enough to believe what He said or do you still look for excuses.

You avoided dealing with the verses cited. Secondly, I'm not a scriptural literalist. Thirdly, I'm not a Christian. Fourthly, your suggestion that I look for "excuses" is nothing more than condescending clap-trap from someone who doesn't know me but yet is all too willing to judge.

 

[metis]

"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." Rev 17:8. Holy Writ foretold that the world would worship the pope so it is no surprise that it is happening.

You gotta be kidding, right?

OK, let me play this game back with you: Maybe you're the "beast" referred to-- prove me wrong.

 

[metis]

Properly the world is worshipping the Pope by keeping Sunday -the day of his appointment - holy.

False. Catholics simply are not involved or allowed to "worship the Pope". Where do you come up with this nonsense?

 

[metis]

BTW, I grew up in one of the fundamentalist Protestant church that taught this bizarre bigotry, studied theology during my undergrad years, left that church, married a devout Catholic woman, studied a lot more theology and taught it for many years, and it's mind-boggling to me that some people today buy into this completely absurd and highly bigoted interpretation.

My message to some here: do some serious studying and then look for a new church that doesn't teach bigotry and hatred.

 

[Windwalker]

Everyone is free to choose but if God says to observe the seventh day and someone else says observe anagape meal, I think I will stay with God.

Do you keep all 613 laws of the OT then? Do you eat lobster or any other shellfish, for one example? If you do, which I wouldn't doubt, then why this obsession with Saturday? Was Jesus obsessed about calendar days? Is the point of the Christian message about finding God through obeying laws? Personally, I get a very different takeaway from reading the NT.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

This still does not explain what Jesus said in the New Testament when He said "keep the commandments" and "think not that I amd come to destroy the law".It is simply more excuses why you do not have to keep the commandments. People keep saying they love Jesus but apparently not enough to do what He said to do if you love Him. The obsession with the seventh day is because God worked six days and rested on the seventh. He said for people to honor this day. He did not rest on the first day.

 

[metis]

This still does not explain what Jesus said in the New Testament when He said "keep the commandments" and "think not that I amd come to destroy the law".It is simply more excuses why you do not have to keep the commandments. People keep saying they love Jesus but apparently not enough to do what He said to do if you love Him. The obsession with the seventh day is because God worked six days and rested on the seventh. He said for people to honor this day. He did not rest on the first day.

See post #29.

Again, the Sabbath Laws apply to only Jews as the direction from God to follow them only is found in Exodus and thereafter, not Genesis, and it was given to Jews at Sinai with no statement that gentiles had to follow them. At no time in Jewish history was Shabbat observance a requirement for gentiles. If it had been, most certainly we would see verses somewhere in the Tanakh to support that, but there simply ain't any.

 

[Windwalker]

This still does not explain what Jesus said in the New Testament when He said "keep the commandments" and "think not that I amd come to destroy the law".

Aside from what Metis posted in post #29 which addresses this, Jesus said he was there to "fulfill" the law. That is not accomplished by anyone by being legalistic. His entire message was about those who "strain at gnats (legal observations), while swallowing camels whole (hypocrisy of placing the observation of laws and rules above Love, and hence in place of God, disobeying God in the process).

Legalism is in fact not fulfilling the law at all. It's just being really good at doing everything "right", while being completely in the wrong. Keep the Sabbath day observation all you want. Those who ignore it and Love, will enter the kingdom of God ahead of you, says Jesus in so many words. And that, is the message of Jesus. One "obeys" by loving, not by adhering to strict observation. It's on practically every single page of the NT. And do not misconstrue that to mean you "love if you are a strict observer". That's pure BS and a form of denial.

It is simply more excuses why you do not have to keep the commandments.

Legalism is an excuse to not love. It's harder to love, than to keep the keep the Sabbath day. You cannot just "do" love. It's nothing you "do". You can't observe it like a day of the week! Anyone with a whip to the back can be trained to keep the rules. But Love is something that only comes from within the Heart. That cannot be whipped into someone, and it is that alone that allows someone to see the Kingdom of God that Jesus talked about. "Tax collectors and prostitutes will enter before you," before the religiously righteous ones who keep all the laws, yet do not have love.

Keeping the law, does not make the heart one of love. That's what Jesus taught.

People keep saying they love Jesus but apparently not enough to do what He said to do if you love Him.

And what is it he said to do, but love one another? That, is keeping his commandments. The commandment of love. Not of dietary restrictions and religious rites and forms and observations, but the commandment to love. Part of the love, nay the very heart of that love, is to not judge another. When you sit and wag your finger at those who don't keep the Sabath as you believe is required of them by God, as you understand it, then aren't you being their judge? And in judging another man's servant, you directly violate Jesus' commandment to not judge, and instead to love. So the one not keeping his commandments, are not the ones who do not judge, but the ones who point out others aren't keeping the law as they understand it.

Be careful, Jesus says. "For with what judgment you judge, it will be returned to you." Who is not following the law, exactly? Those who don't love, according to Jesus' teachings, not those who "strictly obey the rules".

The obsession with the seventh day is because God worked six days and rested on the seventh. He said for people to honor this day. He did not rest on the first day.

First, that's just a story. Did God literally "work", or is this a figure of speech, a story, a metaphor to make a point to others about their particular social order? Regardless of that however, even if you believe God is a flesh and bone super-human who churned out species out of his creation factory whose work week started on Sunday and ended on Friday, putting in at least 48 hours, with lunch breaks being provided by the company for him, it still misses the whole point about Love. Love is that Rest. That is something you utterly miss in being fixated on a particular day. The Rest can be while you toil and labor in each and every single day. The Sabbath, is God himself!

 

[Brickjectivity]

Martin Luther said, "I know now that the pope is antichrist, and that his throne is that of Satan himself.” The Bible spoke of the man of sin who is also Antichrist that he, "exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"-2 Thessalonians 2:4. The Pope has done just that by thinking to change God's Sabbath and, as a sign of his authority above God, substituted it with a day of his own making.

Martin Luther would say all kinds of incitement against anyone he disagreed with. He considered just about everyone to be evil and thought people should do evil rather than good, to make sure they weren't relying on good works. He himself incited peasants to revolt and then incited their princess to then oppress them. What a treacherous man. You can't rely on anything he says about anything. If anything that is the example of his message -- to not rely on him. His letters aren't gone. His evil, treacherous, angry, vengeful, spiteful and murderous acts are on record. He's got nothing worthwhile to say.

"Those pious souls who do good to gain the Kingdom of Heaven not only will never succeed, but they must even be reckoned among the impious; and it is more important to guard them against good works than against sin." (Wittenberg, VI, 160, quoted by O'Hare, in 'The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 122.)

"Like the mules who will not move unless you perpetually whip them with rods, so the civil powers must drive the common people, whip, choke, hang, burn, behead and
torture them, that they may learn to fear the powers that be." (El. ed. 15, 276, quoted by O'Hare, in 'The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 235.)

In a letter: "Tell your master, Caspar Schwenckfeld, that I have received from you the booklet and the letter and would to God he would be silent. Formerly he kindled a fire in Silesia against the holy sacrament, which is not yet extinguished and will burn upon him forever. He continues with his creatureliness, and misleads the church, though God gave him no command, nor sent him. And the mad fool, possessed of the devil, does not understand anything; does not know what he is babbling. But if he will not cease, let him leave me unmolested with his booklets which the devil excretes and spews out of him. Tell him this is my last answer: may all those who have part with you, tegether with you and your blasphemies, be blasted to destruction."

 

[ThreeAngels]

A historicist interpretation of the book of Daniel and the Revelation obviously point to the papacy as the beast and the pope as antichrist. That it is so compelling, the papacy reacted to this approach of interpretation by teaching preterism, which is equally as compelling, if not more so.

What I noticed about the book of Daniel, if you follow the progression of the four kingdoms, Neo-Babylonian Empire, Medo-Persian Empire, Greek Empire, Pagan and then Papal Rome, which split into two empires, west and east. Around the end of all these empires, Adolf Hitler- from killing the first Jews in the death camps to when they were liberated, was just about 3 1/2 years. And then modern Israel was created. It just makes sense to me that Hitler was the little horn that waged war against the saints (the chosen that is.) And that modern Israel is that kingdom that shall never end.

It doesn't really matter to me how you interpret the book of Daniel, it just has been traditionally interpreted by the early Protestants to point to the pope as antichrist. Preterism is worth studying, although it makes some bold claims as well.

The head of gold is the Babylonian empire. The breast and arms of silver is the Medes and Persians. The belly and thighs of brass is Greece. The legs of iron is the Roman empire. The feet part of iron and clay is the ten kingdoms which arose from Rome namely Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Suevi, Burgundians, Heruli, Anglo-Saxons and Lombards. The little horn is the papacy which plucked up the Heruli, Ostrogoths and Vandals. Modern Israel are the commandment-keeping believers, namely the SDA church.
The kingdom that shall never end is yet future. Flesh and blood cannot inherit it, 1Cor 15:50 and is to be set up when Christ shall judge the living and the dead 2Tim 4:2. It is the kingdom set up by the Stone, Jesus, cut out without hands which will smite and break the image to pieces.

 

[ThreeAngels]

Martin Luther would say all kinds of incitement against anyone he disagreed with. He considered just about everyone to be evil and thought people should do evil rather than good, to make sure they weren't relying on good works. He himself incited peasants to revolt and then incited their princess to then oppress them. What a treacherous man. You can't rely on anything he says about anything. If anything that is the example of his message -- to not rely on him. His letters aren't gone. His evil, treacherous, angry, vengeful, spiteful and murderous acts are on record. He's got nothing worthwhile to say.

"Those pious souls who do good to gain the Kingdom of Heaven not only will never succeed, but they must even be reckoned among the impious; and it is more important to guard them against good works than against sin." (Wittenberg, VI, 160, quoted by O'Hare, in 'The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 122.)

"Like the mules who will not move unless you perpetually whip them with rods, so the civil powers must drive the common people, whip, choke, hang, burn, behead and
torture them, that they may learn to fear the powers that be." (El. ed. 15, 276, quoted by O'Hare, in 'The Facts About Luther, TAN Books, 1987, p. 235.)

In a letter: "Tell your master, Caspar Schwenckfeld, that I have received from you the booklet and the letter and would to God he would be silent. Formerly he kindled a fire in Silesia against the holy sacrament, which is not yet extinguished and will burn upon him forever. He continues with his creatureliness, and misleads the church, though God gave him no command, nor sent him. And the mad fool, possessed of the devil, does not understand anything; does not know what he is babbling. But if he will not cease, let him leave me unmolested with his booklets which the devil excretes and spews out of him. Tell him this is my last answer: may all those who have part with you, tegether with you and your blasphemies, be blasted to destruction."

Luther was a man of God who raised his voice against the sins and errors of the papal church. He earnestly endeavored to break the chain of darkness which was confining thousands and causing them to trust in works for salvation. He longed to be enabled to open to their minds the true riches of the grace of God and the excellence of salvation obtained through Jesus Christ. The rage of the priests was kindled against him. They did not wish to be reformed. They chose to be left in ease, in wanton pleasure, in wickedness; and they desired the church also to be kept in darkness.

 

[Brian Schuh]

The head of gold is the Babylonian empire. The breast and arms of silver is the Medes and Persians. The belly and thighs of brass is Greece. The legs of iron is the Roman empire. The feet part of iron and clay is the ten kingdoms which arose from Rome namely Huns, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Franks, Vandals, Suevi, Burgundians, Heruli, Anglo-Saxons and Lombards. The little horn is the papacy which plucked up the Heruli, Ostrogoths and Vandals. Modern Israel are the commandment-keeping believers, namely the SDA church.
The kingdom that shall never end is yet future. Flesh and blood cannot inherit it, 1Cor 15:50 and is to be set up when Christ shall judge the living and the dead 2Tim 4:2. It is the kingdom set up by the Stone, Jesus, cut out without hands which will smite and break the image to pieces.

I was baptized an SDA when I was 14 years old. I am well versed in the SDA interpretation. However, I gave up Adventism, to study with the real Jews. "Beware of those who say they are Jews, but are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan." You are all Gentiles. You are not Jews just because you understand what the true Sabbath is.

Also, the three Germanic tribes that were destroyed by the papacy, were destroyed because they refused to accept the trinity doctrine. Even in the modern catechism, the Catholic Church even today, says the trinity is the foundation of their religion. After the dark ages, the true Christians started to step by step get back to basic truths that were obscured by the Catholic Church. But one can never be sober from the wine of Babylon until they renounce the foundation of Babylon's doctrine-- the trinity. Many of the founding fathers of Adventism rejected the trinity. And yet today, the Adventist church accepted the trinity under pressure, and to counter claims that they are a cult. The Adventist Church bowed under pressure and accepted some of the wine of Babylon, the foundation of its false doctrine, the trinity.

"Hear O Israel, the Lord, the Lord our God, He is One."

 

[ThreeAngels]

I was baptized an SDA when I was 14 years old. I am well versed in the SDA interpretation. However, I gave up Adventism, to study with the real Jews. "Beware of those who say they are Jews, but are not, but are of the synagogue of Satan." You are all Gentiles. You are not Jews just because you understand what the true Sabbath is.

Also, the three Germanic tribes that were destroyed by the papacy, were destroyed because they refused to accept the trinity doctrine. Even in the modern catechism, the Catholic Church even today, says the trinity is the foundation of their religion. After the dark ages, the true Christians started to step by step get back to basic truths that were obscured by the Catholic Church. But one can never be sober from the wine of Babylon until they renounce the foundation of Babylon's doctrine-- the trinity. Many of the founding fathers of Adventism rejected the trinity. And yet today, the Adventist church accepted the trinity under pressure, and to counter claims that they are a cult. The Adventist Church bowed under pressure and accepted some of the wine of Babylon, the foundation of its false doctrine, the trinity.

"Hear O Israel, the Lord, the Lord our God, He is One."

"The Lord spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily My Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you. Ye shall keep the Sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: everyone that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He rested, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:12-17.
These words point out the SDA church as God's denominated people and they declare to us that so long as time shall last, we are to cherish the sacred, denominational distinction placed upon us. The children of Israel were to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations "for a perpetual covenant." The Sabbath has lost none of its meaning. It is still the sign between God and His people, and it will be so forever.
All the nations have drunk the wine of Babylon, see Rev 18:3. The wine of Babylon is the doctrines of Sunday sacredness and immortality of the soul.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Luther was a man of God who raised his voice against the sins and errors of the papal church. He earnestly endeavored to break the chain of darkness which was confining thousands and causing them to trust in works for salvation. He longed to be enabled to open to their minds the true riches of the grace of God and the excellence of salvation obtained through Jesus Christ. The rage of the priests was kindled against him. They did not wish to be reformed. They chose to be left in ease, in wanton pleasure, in wickedness; and they desired the church also to be kept in darkness.

Rather, he took advantage of a movement towards reformation already in progress turning it to his personal gain; and he caused many unnecessary wars in the process. Reformation was happening already. He merely perverted its course into bloodshed. A man of God would have had a little compassion.

 

[metis]

Luther was torn by different factions, one being a legitimate concern about corruption especially at the highest levels of the CC, including the papacy, but also some personal problems he had, including some nasty boats with constipation. He said that some of his best thinking took place when on the toilet. His theology of "saved by faith alone" seems to have emerged from some of his personal doubts about whether he personally would be "saved". [source: "Here I Stand" by Paul Robeson]

Luther had many other "issues", including actually advocating war at times along with a very serious case of anti-Semitism (the Nuremberg Laws enacted by Hitler were right from Luther's pronouncements in the same city), whereas he even wanted Jews executed unless they left countries where his church was dominant. He later backed off on that threat. BTW, he also violated his vow to God on celibacy, marrying a nun who also violated her vows.

Isn't it a "wonder" that so many Protestants talk about corruption in the CC but avoid even accepting much the same that happened in their own faith.

 

[MJFlores]

The Pope of Rome is Antichrist
That is the statement - is he? I'm gonna lift what the antichrist is from the bible:

1 John 2:18 The Message (MSG)
Children, time is just about up. You heard that Antichrist is coming. Well, they’re all over the place, antichrists everywhere you look. That’s how we know that we’re close to the end.

So they are all over the place and everywhere you look.

1 John 2:22-23 The Message (MSG)
So who is lying here? It’s the person who denies that Jesus is the Divine Christ, that’s who. This is what makes an antichrist: denying the Father, denying the Son. No one who denies the Son has any part with the Father, but affirming the Son is an embrace of the Father as well.

Who are the people denying that Jesus is the Christ?
There are such people and are all over the place and everywhere you look

1 John 4:2-3 The Message (MSG)
Here’s how you test for the genuine Spirit of God. Everyone who confesses openly his faith in Jesus Christ—the Son of God, who came as an actual flesh-and-blood person—comes from God and belongs to God. And everyone who refuses to confess faith in Jesus has nothing in common with God. This is the spirit of antichrist that you heard was coming. Well, here it is, sooner than we thought!

Are there people who refuse to confess faith in Jesus?
I'm sure there are and they and are all over the place and everywhere you look

2 John 7 The Message (MSG)
There are a lot of smooth-talking charlatans loose in the world who refuse to believe that Jesus Christ was truly human, a flesh-and-blood human being. Give them their true title: Deceiver! Antichrist!

Are there people who refuse to believe that Jesus Christ was truly human, a flesh-and-blood human being?
What do they believe what Jesus Christ is? A human-god? A demi-god? A god?

Are popes antichrist? You betcha.