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Featured The Pope fails to take a moral stand on Russia's invasion of Ukraine

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by shunyadragon, Sep 23, 2022 at 10:48 AM.

  1. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon shunyadragon
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    The Pope fails to take a moral stand on Russia's invasion of Ukraine
    Today, 11:15 AM

    The Pope of the Roman Church fails to take a moral stand against Russia's invasion of Ukraine by blaming NATO and the West as being partially at fault causing the invasion of Ukraine. The Pope failed to understand Russia's imperialist plans Ukraine invasion was just one step of many in the past and future plans of forced domination of Eastern Europe.

    This morally ambiguous position has inspired support in Itally for the Russian aggression.

    Source: Pope Francis creates confusion as Putin's war against Ukraine rages


    Pope Francis creates confusion as Putin's war against Ukraine rages

    The Vatican has missed opportunities to bring moral clarity to Russia's war against Ukraine

    With war now raging in Ukraine, where is the Holy See? And how has it chosen to use its moral authority and influence?

    In Ukraine, the world now faces the worst brutality and inhumanity since the Second World War and Stalin’s purges. Vladimir Putin is actualizing his expressed long-term goal of regaining territories lost after the fall of the Iron Curtain. For years, he has longed for the territory held by Catherine the Great. Now, he’s even comparing himself to Peter the Great in executing this hegemonist aggression.

    While Pope Francis has made clear that he does not support the war or Putin’s personal butchery, he has created more confusion than resolution. He has nurtured, even if unintentionally, a false mantra that, essentially, the West is to blame for Putin’s aggression by having expanded NATO. As he said, quoting a source he valued, "They are barking at the gates of Russia. They do not understand that the Russians are imperialists and will allow no foreign power to approach them." Despite the lack of evidence of any NATO hostility toward peaceful Russian actions, or the fact that NATO is in the business of protecting western democracies, including our newest members, Pope Francis has argued that its expansion is itself an aggression; and that because it would offend a Russian "imperialist" culture, we have been the wrongdoers.

    Unfortunately, an authoritarian strongman like Putin will only be ennobled by these comments coming from the top of one of the West’s most esteemed institutions. Appeasement has never worked. As Churchill said, "An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile—hoping it will eat him last." In light of the history of Hitler and Stalin’s co-option and then destruction of the Church, one would hope that the pope would know this.

    The pope has added to this confusion about the Holy See’s diplomacy regarding the Ukraine war by criticizing those who see the war as a struggle between good and evil. He advises those who view the war in such stark black and white terms to abandon this "Little Red Riding Hood" pattern of thought. He even contends that "there are no metaphysical good guys and bad guys, in an abstract sense."

    So a few questions: what level of death and destruction are necessary to make the wolf a malevolent aggressor? Has not the obliteration of a large part of Ukraine already accomplished this? Are there no universal truths and objective realities? Is the pope actually endorsing moral relativity?

    © Copyright Original Source



    This moral ambiguity of the Pope concerning the invasion of Ukraine has contributed to the support of Russia by Italian elected representatives and support for Russia among Italians. The Pope remains silent.

    More to follow concerning the support for Russia among Italians,
     
  2. Rival

    Rival Divine Adoratrice of Amun
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  3. exchemist

    exchemist Veteran Member

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    Can we see a report of this from a source other than Fox News? It seems to me as if some nuances may have ben lost.

    By the way, do you know if Fox ever commented on Trump's remark that Putin is a "genius" for invading Ukraine? Analysis: Donald Trump calling Vladimir Putin a 'genius' was no mistake - CNNPolitics
     
  4. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Consider the source. There is little support for this pope among Italians period. Has little to do with Ukraine.
     
  5. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    The pope said he was not “pro-Putin” and that it would be “simplistic and wrong to say such a thing”. He also said Russia had “miscalculated” the war. “It is also true that the Russians thought it would all be over in a week. They encountered a brave people, a people who are struggling to survive and who have a history of struggle.”

    On Tuesday morning, the pontiff published a message saying the invasion of Ukraine was a violation of a country’s right to self-determination.

    “The war in Ukraine has now been added to the regional wars that for years have taken a heavy toll of death and destruction,” he said in a message for the Roman Catholic church’s World Day of the Poor, which will be marked in November. “Yet here the situation is even more complex due to the direct intervention of a ‘superpower’ aimed at imposing its own will in violation of the principle of the self-determination of peoples.”

    Pope Francis says Ukraine war was ‘perhaps somehow provoked’ | Pope Francis | The Guardian
     
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  6. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    It's not necessarily the pope's job to make moral pronouncements about political events. His job is to try and do as much good in the world as he can. And sometimes that goal may be better served by NOT make moral pronouncements on a political issue.
     
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  7. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    The Pope of the Catholic Church cannot and will not say that weaponry is a holy thing.
    It is unchristian.
    Because peace is made through peace. Diplomacy.
    Not by sending weapons.

    This is also written in the Italian Constitution, article 11.
     
  8. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Exactly. The Pope sides with neither country.
    Because both use warfare, violence and so on.
    And we need to point out that Ukrainians have started it in Donbass...so they are practically cut from the same cloth.
     
    #8 Estro Felino, Sep 23, 2022 at 1:27 PM
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2022 at 3:22 PM
  9. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    I can't help but notice you have misspelled 'Russians'.
     
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  10. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    That's not his job either. Otherwise, the Catholic Church wouldn't be so filthy rich.
    And this is not just an ordinary and trivial political event...
     
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  11. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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  12. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    It all started when Russians invaded Ukraine to take hold over Crimea.
    The conflict has ever since escalated from that point forward.
     
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  13. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Ukraine war: Russia's mobilisation, referenda criticised and Pope slams Ukrainians' suffering (msn.com)

    Pope decries savagery, monstrosities against people in Ukraine | Crux (cruxnow.com)

    Pope says supplying weapons to Ukraine is morally acceptable for self defence | Reuters

    Pope says it is 'madness' to think of using nuclear weapons in Ukraine | Reuters
     
  14. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

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    Nevertheless, it's not his job to make moral pronouncements on events that you find morally offensive. Sometimes it's a better strategy to keep quiet and take action to the degree that one is able, instead of getting entangled in verbal rivalries. And anyway, what possible positive outcome would there be to the pope condemning Putin? Do you really think Putin cares at all what the pope thinks of him? Do you really think the pope's words will inspire the Russian people, very few of whom are Catholic, to rise up against Putin and his war? Do you think the pope condemning Putin will help anyone else in the world to be a better person?

    Because I don't think the pope's condemnation would carry any weight at all with Putin, or with the Russian people. If anything it would just cause them to close ranks lie a dysfunctional family does when accused by an outsider. So what's the point?

    Instead, I think he is trying to get Catholics and fellow Christians to STOP with all this self-righteous condemnation and finger-pointing at others. And he has said as much, lately. I would think you would be in support of that.
     
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  15. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    If Crimeans want to be within the Russian Federation, let them be.
     
  16. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    Ya, but how to determine that since Putin has a reputation of getting only what he wants while claiming to hold free elections. Seems that some disappear when he holds them.:shrug:
     
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  17. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Yes, but we all know the Pope sides with neither country.
    He sides with peace.
     
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  18. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    It is not about Crimeans wanting to be part of Russia, but rather russian interference. That was the act of war that started this whole mess.
     
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  19. Koldo

    Koldo Incredible Member

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    Do you mean he himself doesn't find invasion of Ukraine to be morally offensive?
    Because that's not what he said, like at all.

    The pope is the leader of a major religion, and as such, whatever he says gets the spotlight. By using this platform, he can send a message to a lot of people that will, at the very least, listen to what he has to say. It is all about taking a stand and inspiring others to do likewise. People can go far and beyond, they can be willing to sacrifice what they have if their hearts have been reached.
     
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  20. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    I can only think this: if I were a big, strong bully and decided that I wanted the land and house owned by my neighbour, and took it by force -- I would surely be arrested, tried and punished. And rightly so, in my view. If Russia wants pieces (or all) of Ukraine, and tries to take it by force -- is it not doing what is exactly analagous?
     
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