• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Plurality of God, The First and the Last

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
first thanks for the reply, second, you ERROR. for a HOUSE include Tribes..... understand? if not, the Lord Jesus is over his OWN "HOUSE", (see Hebrews 3:6), which includes Jews and Gentiles, for any who are in him, (the Lord Jesus), and is born again, is neither Jew nor Greek, neither male nor female, nor bond nor free, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus... hello. so you're reproved.
PICJAG, 101G.

So, your response is to quote from the false prophet Paul. Well, that would be fine for those with a false hope, who are on a wide path to "destruction" (Matthew 7:13), but for someone trying to escape "death", it would be more appropriate to switch to righteousness, versus, embracing lawlessness. (EZ 33:17-19).
The "house of Israel", the lost sheep of the house of Israel, includes 10 tribes after the breakup of Israel and Judah. The tribe of Yeshua was the tribe of Judah. The tribe of Saul was the tribe of Benjamin, which became part of the house of Judah. Saul was apparently possessed by a demon, and his life ended badly. King David was of the house of Judah but has his own "house" (Zech 12:10), and after the "nations/Gentiles" are destroyed (Zechariah 12:9-10), the LORD will pour out the Spirit of grace and supplication upon the "inhabitants of Jerusalem".
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Now, for those who have no clue as to the term Cardinal Numbers and Ordinal Numbers. or a Echad vs a Yachid.
Cardinal Numbers can best be describe as a sum total. Ordinal shows POSITIONS. an example would be in an elevator. each floor is in "POSITION". one cannot used Cardinal numbers to get to your destination. for example you want to get to the third floor. you do not press the the first floor button and the second floor button to get there. nor by pressing the first floor button three times. one press the third floor button to get to the thitd floor. so ordinal numbers is about position. see the difference now.
so in the ECHAD of God the Last came in a position of TIME. scripture, Galatians 4:4 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law," so the Last the Son in flesh was not at Genesis 1:1 but the Spirit was. this is one of the deadliest mistake of those who believe in the US and OUR at Genesis 1:26. the statement was made at Genesis 1:26 but was not fulfilled until John 1:1 when God got off at the 7th. floor.... get it 7th ........ complete or fullness of time, ... floor. that's when the Son, the US and OUR was to be fulfilled, not at Genesis 1:26. because Genesis 1:27 the very next verse confirm that he JESUS, God, as the Ordinal First was alone, and by himself, (per Matthews 19:4), and just as Isaiah 44:24 clearly states when he made all things.... Alone and by himself in "TIME", PLACE, RANK, and ORDER.

so by understanding Ordinal Number, as Deuteronomy 6:4 states, one can clearly understand the Godhead., as FIRST and LAST.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
you don't get it did you. but no worries mate...... (smile)...
PICJAG, 101G.

I get it 101G. I don't buy it. I know of only one Hebrew scholar who buys it. But I have never known any other Hebrew scholar who buys it.

But then all get it. Unless of course you could show me that significant numbers of Hebrew Scholars saying yes to plurals of numbers of Elohim, and all kinds of "im" are plurals, specifically 2 or 3, not 100 or 1000, and one is 2 or 3, and not 1.

I think that endeavour will be a bit of a failure.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
I get it 101G. I don't buy it. I know of only one Hebrew scholar who buys it. But I have never known any other Hebrew scholar who buys it.

But then all get it. Unless of course you could show me that significant numbers of Hebrew Scholars saying yes to plurals of numbers of Elohim, and all kinds of "im" are plurals, specifically 2 or 3, not 100 or 1000, and one is 2 or 3, and not 1.

I think that endeavour will be a bit of a failure.
First thanks for the reply, second, glad at least you got it, but buying it? it's free.... (smile). Isaiah 55:1 "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price."
PICJAG, 101G.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
there is no such thing as blind FAITH, maybe of the user, but Faith sees very well, even in the "DARK"... (smile). PICJAG, 101G.

Sure, there is ' credulity ' ( aka blind faith ) and there is real faith aka confidence.
Faith such as Jesus had confidence in what he was teaching.
Confidently had faith by Jesus using his logical reasoning on the old Hebrew Scriptures on which to base his teachings.

I can agree that such ' faith/confidence ' that Jesus has helps us see in these 'DARK last of the last days of badness on Earth' before Jesus takes rescue action ( Isaiah 11:3-4; Revelation 19:14-15 )
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
to all, STATEMENT: the bible is clear, we can KNOW the Godhead, scripture, Romans 1:19 "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them." Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
what things was made that we can know the Godhead? well of course "US". Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
but was not God a single person when he made man? yes this is the beauty of God in the ECHAD as First/LORD, and Last/Lord. just as the very next verse states,

Genesis 1:27 "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."
so how is this a revealing of the Godhead.... in the making man "male and female". for the term Adam mean, here at Genesis 1:26, is "ANOTHER" of ONE-SELF. BINGO, that's God's plurality, or ECHAD of himself in Flesh. for the term Adam itself can be translated in the (kjv), as "ANOTHER". using the Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments, ADAM:
H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m.
ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
[from H119]
KJV:
X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
Root(s): H119
there it is... "
X another", just as G243 Allos or "ANOTHER" defind the ECHAD of God in NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE, of Firsdt and Last, according to the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words allos is defined, or expresses, "a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort". this numerical difference is just what the ECHAD is in definition at Deuteronomy 6:4, a numerical difference of the same ONE PERSON/ or as G243 allos states, "the same sort", or the same person. now the clear understanding of the term God is clearly before us, the H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') in Genesis 1:1. it is the Ordinal First and Last of God the H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) in TIME, PLACE, RANK, and ORDER. this proves that God is a ECHAD of one person within himself in TIME, PLACE, RANK, and ORDER. this answer the plurality of God in the OP.

now we need to understand HOW or the mechanism of this plurality. and MY "ANSWER" is EQUAL SHARE, God is the EQUAL of himself in Flesh. because God cannot be divided, separated, or distinct from himself...... let me say this again, "
God cannot be divided, separated, or distinct from himself."
now if anyone have a better explanation of his plurality, please post it.
PICJAG, 101G.
Do you actually know and understand ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek? Or do you just reprint dictionaries?
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
first thanks for the reply, but do not the shema states a Plurality in Ordinal designation of First and Last? Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"
]and this definition of "ONE" is
H259 אֶחָד 'echad (ech-awd') adj.
1. (properly) united, i.e. one.
2. (as an ordinal) first.
[a numeral from H258]
KJV: a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, (dai-)ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.
Root(s): H258
and is not God the H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') a Plurality in Ordinal designation of First and Last? meaning a NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE? look up the term "ANOTHER" in the GREEK and one will see this NUMERICAL DIFFERENCE in a Plurality of Ordinal First and Last.
PICJAG, 101G.
You’re conflating the terms “YHVH” and “Elohim,” and thus confusing different strains of understanding and expression.
The position of the Elohist is henotheistic. The understanding of the Jahwist is monothestic.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
First thanks for the reply, second, glad at least you got it, but buying it? it's free.... (smile). Isaiah 55:1 "Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price."
PICJAG, 101G.

One is not plural. Consult a few Jewish scholars.

Have a great day.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
You’re conflating the terms “YHVH” and “Elohim,” and thus confusing different strains of understanding and expression.
The position of the Elohist is henotheistic. The understanding of the Jahwist is monothestic.
your
You’re conflating the terms “YHVH” and “Elohim,” and thus confusing different strains of understanding and expression.
The position of the Elohist is henotheistic. The understanding of the Jahwist is monothestic.
your opinion again? ... thought so.... YIKES!.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
One is not plural. Consult a few Jewish scholars.

Have a great day.
look, Consult God, it's in his Holy Word. now last time... listen closley. is not the Lord Jesus the First and the Last? Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:" and the Lord Jesus is ONE person, correct... there is only ONE "FIRST" and ONE "LAST Who is God, and again is not the Lord Jesus one Person?
revelation time once again, Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." here just as in Revelation 1:17 the FIRST and the LAST. is this one person also here in Isaiah? answer yes, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." BINGO, one person. as said, instead of a consult with a few Jewish scholars, go to God instead, and use the common sense he, God, the Lortd Jesus gave you. don't be fooled by the evil one, or men philosophy. Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
be blessed in the Lord Jesus, ok.
PICJAG, 101G.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
look, Consult God, it's in his Holy Word. now last time... listen closley. is not the Lord Jesus the First and the Last? Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:" and the Lord Jesus is ONE person, correct... there is only ONE "FIRST" and ONE "LAST Who is God, and again is not the Lord Jesus one Person?
revelation time once again, Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." here just as in Revelation 1:17 the FIRST and the LAST. is this one person also here in Isaiah? answer yes, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." BINGO, one person. as said, instead of a consult with a few Jewish scholars, go to God instead, and use the common sense he, God, the Lortd Jesus gave you. don't be fooled by the evil one, or men philosophy. Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
be blessed in the Lord Jesus, ok.
PICJAG, 101G.
Jesus also never appears in Isaiah. If the HS is teaching you, these posts indicate that you’re not listening.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Now lets get back to the OP, and the subject at hand.

Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.".
this term “GOD” here is H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
אֱלֹהֵי 'elohiy (el-o-hee') [alternate plural]
1. (literally) supreme ones.
2. (hence, in the ordinary sense) gods.
3. (specifically, in the plural, especially with the article) the Supreme God (i.e. the all supreme).
4. (sometimes) supreme, used as a superlative.
5. (occasionally, by way of deference) supreme magistrates, the highest magistrates of the land.
6. (also) the supreme angels (entities of unspecified type).
[plural of H433]
KJV: angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
Root(s): H433

so where and from what, or WHO, did this word originate from? answer it's root word. and that root word is H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) n-m.
אֱלֹהַּ 'eloahh (el-o'-ah) [shortened (rarely)]
1. one with supreme strength and ability.
2. the Supreme Being, God the Creator, Yahweh by name.
3. a supreme entity, a god-like creature (that is, one of God's supreme creations, or one of man's inventions).
[probably prolonged (emphat.) from H410]
KJV: God, god.

so here is the challenge. if a word comes from a source, or Root word, then the word itself is not the orginal Source, meaning the word came after it's source.

now here is the dilemma for the multi person Godhead believer. if the H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') come from H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah), then the H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') has to be from WITHIN H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) himself else one has two or more Gods. it's just that simple. lets be clear, if H430 אֱלֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') consist of as many claim to have multi distinct persons from each other of the Godhead, that is ftom outside H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) himself. then they are in to polytheism by definition.

and if these persons are from within H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) then they are not persons but titles of H433 אֱלוֹהַּ 'elowahh (el-o'-ah) in manifestations.

it's Just that simple.... Diversified Oneness agrees with the bible as ONE God, and ONE person ONLY in a SHARE of oneself, or as the bible states, an "ECHAD of ordinal designations in "First and Last". there is no way around the bible........ and Diversified Oneness complies with the bible, meaning with God.
anything else out-side of the Bible, God's Holy Word, and Diversified Oneness is not TRUE, but false.

now, don't argue with 101G, nor the bible, but do as 1 Thessalonians 5:21 states, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." now our proof is before all to see, if one disagree, then prove diversified Oneness and the bible in ERROR.
your choice.... (smile).

PICJAG, 101G.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
look, Consult God, it's in his Holy Word. now last time... listen closley. is not the Lord Jesus the First and the Last? Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:" and the Lord Jesus is ONE person, correct... there is only ONE "FIRST" and ONE "LAST Who is God, and again is not the Lord Jesus one Person?
revelation time once again, Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." here just as in Revelation 1:17 the FIRST and the LAST. is this one person also here in Isaiah? answer yes, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." BINGO, one person. as said, instead of a consult with a few Jewish scholars, go to God instead, and use the common sense he, God, the Lortd Jesus gave you. don't be fooled by the evil one, or men philosophy. Colossians 2:8 "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
be blessed in the Lord Jesus, ok.
PICJAG, 101G.
In consulting God's Word aka Bible, there is No first and No last for God according to Psalms 90:2.
God had No beginning, No first start for God. God has No ending, No last for God, No death for God - Psalms 90:2
Revelation 1:17; Revelation 1:5 is about Jesus in connection to Revelation 2:8 as Jesus being the ' first ' and the ' last ' to come to life. However, God being 'from everlasting to everlasting' never dies, and No first for God.
Jesus as the 1st to be resurrected according to Acts of the Apostles 26:23.
Jesus as the 1st born from the dead - Colossians 1:18.
Dead Jesus was resurrected by his Living God - Acts of the Apostles 3:15; 2:24; Romans 4:24
 

101G

Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, to all.
In consulting God's Word aka Bible, there is No first and No last for God according to Psalms 90:2.
thanks for the reply., second then You ERROR, Psalms 90:2 "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.". this is a general mistake of some Jews also. was not God manifest in flesh as a man, his own IMAGE? yes, and Jesus is this "LAST" ADAM, which is done away with, for in the resurrection, this flesh is no more, for God give us new BODIES, which are not NATURAL. . and No, the Lord Jesus, (the spirit), did not DIE, but the body did, which is a NATURAL or "FIRST" death. so your, " Jesus being the ' first ' and the ' last ' to come to life.", is an ERROR for many are come to life in the resurrection. so you're reproved there. now as for as the First and the Last, scripture, Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." and to be sure that he God, the Lord Jesus is this Adam of flesh that is done away with is the same one person "GOD". scripture, Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last." so reprove you there, and is Not Jesus God? yes, and who is the "LAST" Adam?", yes. 1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." so God as the LAST is the END to all NATURAL Flesh, Bit as Spirit he is to all EVERLASTING LIFE, so there is no conflict in the OLD and NEW Testament scriptures, only one needs to separate the flesh from the Spirit, which the bible states "Rightly dividing the word of TRUTH". you're reprove there.
always remember only the "FLESH died, Spirit don';t die .... NATURAL DEATHS. ok.

God had No beginning, No first start for God. God has No ending, No last for God, No death for God - Psalms 90:2
Spirit, God, the Lord Jesus has no beginning, only in CREATION, when he came into it. and ended , or terminated the NATURAL Flesh of Man. so for a little humor, and I say again for a little humor, we can see God, the Lord Jesus as the "TERMINATOR" of Natural flesh.... (smile). .... YIKES, ... see, (understand, he went back in time and terminated the flesh for all mankind to have a better, or EVERLASTING Life). there is nothing new under the sun. Hey that a good movie script... (smile). lol, lol, lol,
Jesus as the 1st to be resurrected according to Acts of the Apostles 26:23.
so is he the LAST to be resurrected... too? no... see above.
Jesus as the 1st born from the dead - Colossians 1:18.
the FIRST one to recieve the NEW BODY, again see above.
Dead Jesus was resurrected by his Living God - Acts of the Apostles 3:15; 2:24; Romans 4:24
Another ERROR on your Part. did you not READ, Hesus eaise up his own Body? for he is "GOD, your LLR for today. scripture, John 2:18 "Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?" John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." John 2:20 "Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?" John 2:21 "But he spake of the temple of his body." John 2:22 "When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said." DID YOU SEE THAT? JESUS RAISED UP HIS OWN TEMPLE/BODY. so you're reproved there also.

Listen up people... JESUS is God "SHARED", EQUALLY in Flesh as the Ordinal First and the Ordinal Last, there is no getting around it.

PICJAG, 101G.
 
Top