The plight of atheism, is this why the incessant arguing?

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

But do you think scientific inquiry into the physical and materialistic things in the universe are going to answer your questions about who or what God is?

I believe it can show us what God definitely isn't.

 

[columbus]

But do you think scientific inquiry into the physical and materialistic things in the universe are going to answer your questions about who or what God is?

You semi see that there are huge questions that science can never explain, but considering yourself rational, you hope it does.

I firmly believe that when the honest and accurate answer is "I don't know" or "I can't be sure", the best way forward is to admit the limitations and look for solid answers.
Making up explanations or picking some ancient, primitive, prophet and accepting his authority is a bad way to go forward. That is the essence of religion.
Now I don't much care what you believe, as long as you keep it to yourself. But don't expect me to care about your personal opinion on Sacraments, pork chops, or homosex unless you can give me a plausible explanation. That doesn't include your personal opinion about what the English translation of some ancient book of primitive beliefs means. And starting your personal opinion with "God says..." doesn't give it any more credibility to me. Because God didn't say anything like that to me.
Tom

 

[ChristineM]

I don't see literacy mentioned as a test in the Bible. Instead I've seen estimates that in Jesus' era, if 10% of the Eastern Mediterranean population could read, they'd be doing extremely well ─ with the additional hurdle that we're talking about literacy in Greek.

As far as I can tell, if you believe you're a follower of Jesus, then you're a Christian. It's up to you, not anyone else, to say whether you're a Christian or not.

I know that irritates certain kinds of Christians who want to disown other kinds of Christians by saying they're not Christians at all; but if they're relying on anything in the NT when they say that, I've missed it.

There were and are plenty of preachers.

But i kind of agree, its a mindset, one molded from teachings from indoctrination. Teachers can be good or bad.

I believe a very relevant example is Hitler, who was a self proclaimed christian and carried out his atrocities using his version of bible teaching as a guide. Many Christians would disagree.

 

[DavidFirth]

There were and are plenty of preachers.

But i kind of agree, its a mindset, one molded from teachings from indoctrination. Teachers can be good or bad.

I believe a very relevant example is Hitler, who was a self proclaimed christian and carried out his atrocities using his version of bible teaching as a guide. Many Christians would disagree.

Satan doesn't run around with horns and a pitchfork. He appears as an angel in white and uses soothing but lying words. Just like Hitler did.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Satan doesn't run around with horns and a pitchfork. He appears as an angel in white and uses soothing but lying words. Just like Hitler did.

Hitler dressesd like an angel in white?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

First, the logic of omnipotence says that if you aren't omniscient already, you can make yourself omniscient whenever you want to.

Don't forget that omniscience and omnipotence are mutually exclusive. If one knows the future with uncertainty, one is powerless to change it and must just sit back passively and watch it all play out like the rest of us, except knowing in advance where it's going and how things will turn out..

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

an atheist is more interested in what science is discovering, that is our reality ... If there were just some evidence for any creator god that can be corroborated, and agreed upon....... Instead, the reality is few can agree upon anything regarding religion, thus there are hundreds and thousands of gods and goddesses, and as many beliefs.

You might like this:

"Can you explain why there are several hundred thousand gods accepted by different religious people, but only one periodic table accepted by different scientists?" - anonymous Internet poster

 

[shmogie]

First, the logic of omnipotence says that if you aren't omniscient already, you can make yourself omniscient whenever you want to.

Second, if you're omnipresent, you're present throughout Einsteinian spacetime, not stuck in the strange NOW that humans experience. As you know, there's no NOW in physics.

Third, if you're perfect, then you can guess the future with 100% accuracy, as far in any direction as you wish.

The alternative is a god gazing in all too human puzzlement at the busy busy world [he]'s created, never knowing what's going to happen next, unable to anticipate problems, constantly being blindsided and completely unable to plan a destiny for [his] creation, let alone bring that destiny about.

Meanwhile, we observe that the universe behaves exactly as though no gods exist outside of imagination. So if a real god were shown to exist, I'd have to agree that your explanation accounts for what we observe.

Your reference to the logic of omnipotence is flawed. There are many things that an omnipotent God cannot do. He cannot make a round circle, he cannot make 2+2=5, he cannot make something that is too heavy for him to lift. Omnipotence has boundaries. He is omnipresent, present in
every place it is possible to be. What does being perfect have to do with guessing the future ? Your last paragraph totally displays your complete ignorance of the Open View of God, and your conclusions are as funny as they are ridiculous. You havent a clue as to what I am talking about.

I firmly believe that when the honest and accurate answer is "I don't know" or "I can't be sure", the best way forward is to admit the limitations and look for solid answers.
Making up explanations or picking some ancient, primitive, prophet and accepting his authority is a bad way to go forward. That is the essence of religion.
Now I don't much care what you believe, as long as you keep it to yourself. But don't expect me to care about your personal opinion on Sacraments, pork chops, or homosex unless you can give me a plausible explanation. That doesn't include your personal opinion about what the English translation of some ancient book of primitive beliefs means. And starting your personal opinion with "God says..." doesn't give it any more credibility to me. Because God didn't say anything like that to me.
Tom

So then, you are an agnostic. I couldn't care less what your opinion is about anything. You are a free moral agent to make all of the choices you make freely. You may quantify those ancient writings however you choose, just as I am free to do so. I changed from an atheist-agnostic to a believer based upon EVIDENCE that was convincing to me. You may walk your path, ad I will walk mine. What you do or do not find credible is irrelevant to me.

 

[ChristineM]

Satan doesn't run around with horns and a pitchfork. He appears as an angel in white and uses soothing but lying words. Just like Hitler did.

Please provide some sort of evidence that satan exists in any shape or form and perhaps you may have a point.

Funny really, Catholic with Vatican backing, the leader of a Protestant country with a +90% approval rating

It takes a lot of willing sheep to commit the atrocities the Nazis did

 

[DavidFirth]

Please provide some sort of evidence that satan exists in any shape or form and perhaps you may have a point.

Funny really, Catholic with Vatican backing, the leader of a Protestant country with a +90% approval rating

It takes a lot of willing sheep to commit the atrocities the Nazis did

You're not spiritual, so all the evidence in the world, including one coming back from the dead, would not convince you. Your conscience has been dulled and you listen but you do not hear. Sixteen Ph.D.'s can't fix that, only the Christ you have no faith in can fix that.

If he had actually followed the teaching of Christ things would have been much different. Anyone who thinks Hitler was a real Christian is a total moron. Many men claim Christ to help strengthen their position, they still do.

There was nothing funny about it at all.

Also, the Vatican doesn't impress me, it has evil men posing as followers of Christ just like most all other organizations do.

 

[ChristineM]

You're not spiritual, so all the evidence in the world, including one coming back from the dead, would not convince you. Your conscience has been dulled and you listen but you do not hear. Sixteen Ph.D.'s can't fix that, only the Christ you have no faith in can fix that.

If he had actually followed the teaching of Christ things would have been much different. Anyone who thinks Hitler was a real Christian is a total moron. Many men claim Christ to help strengthen their position, they still do.

There was nothing funny about it at all.

Also, the Vatican doesn't impress me, it has evil men posing as followers of Christ just like most all other organizations do.

Spiritual is not evidence. Evidence will convince me, opinion

He [Hitler] did follow the teachings of christ and the Bible. And the Vatican considered him Christian, i reckon they have more weight in the who's christian or not than a poster on a forum

Yes many do, and good luck to them

Correct, not funny, nor was it meant to be but it was honest.

I could not care any less which cults of Christianity impress you. Catholicism just happens to be the biggest of them with more than half the total amount of Christians in their rank's

The other billion at spread out in over 50,000 small groups.

 

[blü 2]

Don't forget that omniscience and omnipotence are mutually exclusive. If one knows the future with uncertainty, one is powerless to change it and must just sit back passively and watch it all play out like the rest of us, except knowing in advance where it's going and how things will turn out..

Unless omniscience knows a way around this, of course.

 

[DavidFirth]

Spiritual is not evidence. Evidence will convince me, opinion

He [Hitler] did follow the teachings of christ and the Bible. And the Vatican considered him Christian, i reckon they have more weight in the who's christian or not than a poster on a forum

Yes many do, and good luck to them

Correct, not funny, nor was it meant to be but it was honest.

I could not care any less which cults of Christianity impress you. Catholicism just happens to be the biggest of them with more than half the total amount of Christians in their rank's

The other billion at spread out in over 50,000 small groups.

It is Christ who knows who are Christians and who are not. The day will come when He will gather the good together in His kingdom but the bad He will cast out.

 

[blü 2]

There are many things that an omnipotent God cannot do. [...] Omnipotence has boundaries.

Odd that a god who invented everything including reason should be tied in knots by [his] own creation.

He is omnipresent, present in every place it is possible to be.

That's every point in Einsteinian spacetime - relative to us, the past, the present and the future,

What does being perfect have to do with guessing the future ?

[He] makes perfect guesses.

Your last paragraph totally displays your complete ignorance of the Open View of God, and your conclusions are as funny as they are ridiculous.

Yea! That means you're getting to grasp theology at last!

You havent a clue as to what I am talking about.

How much would you like to bet on that?

So then, you are an agnostic.

I don't know where you got that idea from. I'm a non-theist because I've never heard a coherent definition of a real (non-imaginary) god. (That's sometimes called igtheism or ignosticism.) Nor am I able to offer one. As far as I can tell, 100% of gods are mental constructs. No other hypothesis accounts for what we observe about religions in the world.

You may quantify those ancient writings however you choose, just as I am free to do so.

That depends on what we're trying to do. My readings of old documents are bounded by my more general wish to arrive at accurate statements about reality. What are you trying to do?

I changed from an atheist-agnostic to a believer based upon EVIDENCE that was convincing to me.

Fair enough, but your choice comes with many more problems than others you might have made. Or at least, it does if you too are concerned to make accurate statements about reality. If not, then the problem goes away, I guess.

 

[blü 2]

It is Christ who knows who are Christians and who are not.

On the face of it, it seems odd that one's sincere view of oneself as a Christian can be overruled, no?

In your view, do Sikhs and Buddhists and Daoists and Rastafarians and Scientologists get into the Christian heaven when Christ deems them to have behaved like Christians, though the thought may never have crossed their minds?

 

[shmogie]

Unless omniscience knows a way around this, of course.

Your response is pure unadulterated gibberish. To a Christian who is not familiar with the open view, I would happily explain it. No pearls before swine though, especially to one who makes such absurd illogical statements. I mean logic as one who has had some education in it's method. Sir, you are truly out to lunch.

 

[blü 2]

Your response is pure unadulterated gibberish. To a Christian who is not familiar with the open view, I would happily explain it. No pearls before swine though, especially to one who makes such absurd illogical statements. I mean logic as one who has had some education in it's method. Sir, you are truly out to lunch.

With omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, perfection, we're dealing with variations on an infinity theme. With infinity, it's very easy to conjure nonsense while remaining inside the rules.

And that can lead to serious humor, as you mentioned in a previous post.

For more, see #313.

 

[DavidFirth]

Your response is pure unadulterated gibberish. To a Christian who is not familiar with the open view, I would happily explain it. No pearls before swine though, especially to one who makes such absurd illogical statements. I mean logic as one who has had some education in it's method. Sir, you are truly out to lunch.

You talking to me?

 

[viole]

Atheism, is, a minority group.

In your country, maybe.

Ciao

- viole

 

[ChristineM]

It is Christ who knows who are Christians and who are not. The day will come when He will gather the good together in His kingdom but the bad He will cast out.

Ahh preaching... There, there.

You have evidence of christ or his "kingdom" or are you just relying on faith, what your elders tell you and wishfull thinking?