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Featured The plight of atheism, is this why the incessant arguing?

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Desert Snake, Aug 1, 2017.

  1. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    More than many creos, I dare say, since I've read and tried to understand both sides. The kindest thing I can say about ID is that its basic premise is untrue, and that its 'scientific' advocates like Meyer, Dembski &c know full well it's antiscience.
    If the odds against a self-reproducing cell forming by chance are, let's say, one in 100 sextillion (10^23), then since we guesstimate there are comfortably more than 100 septillion (10^26) planets in the universe, such a cell is dang near a certainty.
    They were all lined up at the Dover trial as evidence of 'irreducible complexity'. Every one of them was explained in terms of evolution (by exaptation, to be precise). That cupboard is bare.
    He's a creo, isn't he. The ICR plays the music and he dances along.
    I'll debate you on theology when someone can give me a definition of 'god' useful to reasoned enquiry ─ so that we know what we're talking about, what we're looking for, and how, if we find one, to show it's an authentic example.

    These being very straightforward questions about reality (rather than the realms of pure imagination), how come no one can put me straight about them? If I say theologists have no idea what they're talking about, that would be a fair statement of the position, wouldn't it?
     
    #261 blü 2, Aug 11, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2017
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  2. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Hi Christine,

    The rest of your post was as bizarre, therefore the question. Revelation 19:6 says, "And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."

    Please explain how E=MC^2 explains how God or angles cannot make loud sounds.
     
  3. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Impossible, since logic and reasoning changed me from skeptic to believer. Also, I'm open-minded, indeed, Jesus's very definitions of truth seeking indicate believers are more open-minded and reasonable than non-believers.
     
  4. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    An interesting concept you have. I like your sharp thinking. You honestly clearly have some deep thoughts on these matters.

    My response would include "Clearly God loves diversity in the creation and human minds are wondrous creations."

    It should be encouraging, not dissuading, that God is a God who responds to ones individually, just as they need.

    Further, while the fact that most people find God self-evident is something I find persuasive, I find it more persuasive that the Bible gives great insight on human behavior and thinking, along with fulfilled prophecy, encouragement and love.
     
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  5. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Is you response to me, arguing that I incessantly argue, not an argument you are making, incessantly? :)

    But seriously, I have great respect for open-minded atheists, like you.
     
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  6. BilliardsBall

    BilliardsBall Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for sharing that if one million people jumped off a ledge, you still wouldn't (as the overwhelmingly majority of persons find God self-evident within). I admire your mental resolve and toughness. I was the same way--it was VERY, VERY difficult to convince me about Jesus as a zealous Jew and as a sometime skeptic of God, too.

    To answer your question, when you encounter God, respond with trusting Jesus for knowledge and direction. That is your best response. Jesus said He will draw all persons unto Himself. Your time shall surely come.
     
  7. Curious George

    Curious George Veteran Member

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    I simply meant that I hope you can experience in person the care and respect another can have for you despite your views. And I would hope you learn to love and respect others depite theirs, since it is such a foreign concept to you.

    Cheers
     
  8. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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  9. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    What has sound to do with omnipotence?

    Omnipotence = infinite power

    Power = energy expended over time

    E=mc2 shows that energy cannot be infinite.
     
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  10. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    God is omnipotent. You are now confusing omnipotence with omniscience. Take a deep breath and try and decide exactly what it is you are talking about
     
  11. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    I don't understand your answer. I've already agreed that people imagine gods all the time. I'm talking about real ones ─ ones with objective existence. Only then can I answer the rest of your question.

    So in the real world : What entity or thing is Jesus? A 2000 yo man? Something else? What? Do you have photos or videos? What life-systems keep him going? Where should we look for him? If we need anything more than a video camera, what do we need and why? How can the identity of this entity be confirmed as Jesus?
     
  12. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    If I'm omnipotent, then I can have omniscience (and omnipresence, and perfection, and weekends off) at the snap of my omnipotent fingers, no?

    If I can't, I'm not omnipotent.
     
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  13. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Power, and knowing what hasn't occurred have no relation to one another. That is why there is omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence
     
  14. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    No, the fair statement is YOU have no idea what you are talking about., You play fast and loose with the facts, make them up as you go along, and are sarcastic and arrogant in the bargain. Your factual credibility with me is very low, your ego quotient with yourself is very high. Consequently, I will make little effort to respond to you, and I will never take your pap as relevant to much of anything.
     
  15. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    Macro evolution is FAR from settled science, and you believing it is is unnerving when you say you are up to date on the sciences. Hoyle is ancient history. There is a whole body of work using methods and information that Hoyle never imagined. Things move on, more information is gathered all the time, you are doing exactly what you accuse me of doing, having a closed mind and eschewing modern data
     
  16. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    God knows everything that has occurred. He know's his created beings as well as possible, and can predict behavior based upon that knowledge. There is nothing that has occurred that cannot be known by God. All your verses fit within this paragraph. It doesn't describe omniscience, try again
     
  17. shmogie

    shmogie Well-Known Member

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    The Bible nowhere describes a flat earth, for example. I have no need to re examine my beliefs, I was once as you, and am satisfied that. I am not any longer. non living chemicals cannot not create a living organism, that is reality. A universe cannot create itself from nothing, that is reality. You would tell a child that a magician cannot create a ball from nothing, but you accept everything that is created, created itself, from nothing. Yet, you talk about reality. Cosmologists and physicists are looking at the possibility multiple universes in different dimensions existing right along side us, yet unseen. Could you believe such a theory if promoted by leaders in these fields with equations ( some exist already) that seem to verify these multiverses ? Yet, no doubt you scoff at Paul when he speaks of powers, principalities and princes unseen. Get real.
     
  18. blü 2

    blü 2 Well-Known Member
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    So omnipotence doesn't mean omnipotence, you say? It merely means being able to do some things and not others.

    What's the full list of things your omnipotent god can't do?
     
  19. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    Oh I get it! Angles and noise explain god! Well how easy was that!. :p
     
  20. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
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    I'm sure you know this, but your story is very close to how color blindness was first discovered.

    Dalton, the man who formulated the modern version of the atomic theory, was color blind. He noticed that his colleagues were able to distinguish colors he himself wasn't able to. And that they were consistent in being able to do so. He presented a paper detailing his inability to distinguish red and green based on his observations of others.

    That's why an old word for color blindness is daltonism.
     
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