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The Plan of Salvation -- Beginning to End

madhatter85

Transhumanist
I'm unaware of any source that indicates that the Apostolic keys were passed to anyone not mentioned in the Bible. I know that the Roman Catholic belief is that Peter was the first Bishop of Rome and that he passed on the keys to Linus, who is regarded as Peter's successor. Of course, as the Latter-day Saints believe, a Bishop is not the same as an Apostle, and even if Peter were to have ordained Linus to the office of a Bishop, that would not be the same thing as giving him apostolic authority. Besides, I've always found it kind of interesting that Revelation would have been given to John, who was then exiled on the Isle of Patmos. If Linus truly held the authority the Catholic Church believes he had, why wouldn't God have given Him the revelation He gave John. It just seems very odd that He would have bypassed the head of the Church.[/color]

When I used the phrase "Priesthood authority," I was thinking specifically of the keys of the apostleship. I know that none of our leaders have ever mentioned a specific date at which the Great Apostasy was complete. If all priesthood authority was gone with the death of the last Apostle, it would be relatively easy to pinpoint the date. Since people undoubtedly did hold the priesthood for a period of time after the Apostles deaths, the keys of the offices that were filled would have still been active. Of course, we know that the keys held by the Apostles themselves would have been necessary in order for the Church to function as Christ had intended it to.


very well put.

I would add that seeing certain things done in the Catholic Church, I believe at one point they did hold the Aaronic priesthood. Thier highest position in the church at the time of it's organization was "Bishop" and we know through revelation that the office of Bishop is an Aaronic Priesthood calling. The word "Pope" is derived from a Latin abbreviation, PAPA, meaning "Father of Fathers" or "Bishop of Bishops." The Pope was then elected by a vote and placed into that position. Also the Church places a very big emphasis on communion or the sacrament, and thier recruiting of young men to take part in thier weekly rites.

To me, it sounds like they really tried to follow Christ's example and did the best that they could with the resources they had, and as time went on, things were lost, mistranslated, misunderstood, re-scribed, ect...

I don't think the "Great Apostasy" is something we can narrow down to a certain date on a calendar, but rather somethign that transpired over a very long period of time.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Thank you for that exhaustive treatise on the "plan of salvation," as the LDS define it. I'll post questions/answers in the original thread (why don't the...).
 

Truid

Member
RE: gender of the Holy Ghost

"And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof—for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another." - 1 Nephi 11:11
If the Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of Christ (meaning it's Christ's Spirit) then do Mormons believe there are only 2 members in the Godhead (the Father and Son)?
 

madhatter85

Transhumanist
If the Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of Christ (meaning it's Christ's Spirit) then do Mormons believe there are only 2 members in the Godhead (the Father and Son)?

no, we believe there are 3 members of the godhead, the Holy Ghost being a personage of spirit. He is also called "The Spirit of God" or the "Spirit of Christ" or the "Comforter"
 

DavyCrocket2003

Well-Known Member
That's a stretch he says in re same terr are glories for all the stars, but you do not claim millions of heavens.

Also he says there is but one glory for God.

He then continues to explain how we also aw a glory.

So it seems obvious he is saying how every object in this world is more than it seems, so are we.

Hmm, actually, everyones glory will vary. There will be as many different glories as there are people. However, the magnitudes of those glories will fall into three general categories comparable to the sun, moon, and stars.
 

Kenaz

I Am
A8. The plan became known as “The Plan of Salvation.” God would create a world for them apart from their heavenly home. All who wished to participate would be given the opportunity to come to Earth, to be born to earthly parents and to obtain a mortal body. They would have no memory of their pre-mortal existence.

A9. As part of their mortality, they would be tried and tested. Prophets would be sent to guide them, but they would have to learn to walk in faith and to distinguish between good and evil. This knowledge was essential in order for them to someday become like their Father in Heaven.

A10. There was, however, one caveat. After their time on Earth was finished, they could return to His presence only if they were without sin. He would not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. Sin would be seen as a debt that could only be forgiven if paid in full by someone who owed no debt Himself.

I really enjoyed this, thank you for your time to compile this! I do have a question, however: why would we, as angels (spirit beings, pre-mortal), choose to take on such a risky, and dangerous task of coming to Earth to be tried and tested, with the risk of being cast away and subject to a hierarchy of perfection?

It seems like an unnecessary risk.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I really enjoyed this, thank you for your time to compile this! I do have a question, however: why would we, as angels (spirit beings, pre-mortal), choose to take on such a risky, and dangerous task of coming to Earth to be tried and tested, with the risk of being cast away and subject to a hierarchy of perfection?

It seems like an unnecessary risk.
Mormonism teaches that, during our pre-mortal life, we had a close personal relationship with our Father in Heaven and with His Son, Jesus Christ. We wanted very much to become like our Father, and understood that the experience of mortality was a requirement for us to do so. Remember how in Genesis, in the story of the Fall of Adam, right as God is going to cast Adam and Eve out into the world, He says, "Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil." If you think about this sentence, you'll probably realize that a knowledge of both good and evil is necessary for a person to become like God (i.e. "as one of us," meaning like the Father and the Son). Eden was a perfect place where Adam and Eve could have lived forever without experiencing any of the negative things they would encounter in the world outside. We are taught that if a person never experiences the evil, it is impossible for him to fully appreciate the good. For instance, think about how you felt after recovering from a sickness. Your health probably meant more to you at that time than it usually does. If you'd never known illness, you would be unlikely to be able to really understand the blessing of good health. We need both light and darkness, pleasure and pain, sickness and health, success and failure, etc. in order to recognize and value the other, and in order to begin to progress to the point where we are "perfect, even as [our] Father which is in Heaven is perfect."

We fully understood this when we made the decision to participate in God's plan. We also knew that, even though there would be a risk, if we really wanted to succeed and find ourselves in a position of being welcomed back into Heaven someday, we could know for a surety that we could do so through the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We knew that God would not lie to us and that if He told us that He would do everything in His power (except to coerce or force us) to help us return to His presence, that we could trust Him. Even though we have been made to forget this part of our existence, we did understood the Plan of Salvation, and we knew that we would receive help and guidance along the way. I don't think we really saw it as all that much of a "risk," even though we knew it might end up being a real challenge.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
A5. Among them were two who stood out as incomprehensibly superior to the others. Like their Father, they were perfect in every respect. God the Father called His firstborn spirit son “Jehovah.” He would come to be known to billions as Jesus Christ. His other perfect son would be known as the Holy Ghost. Together these three constituted “the Godhead” – three divine beings who were one in will, purpose, mind and heart.

I was not aware that any doctrine had been revealed concerning the origin of the Holy Ghost. Can you expand on the concept that He is a Son of God?


B9. As Adam and Eve began to bear children, one by one, the spirits of each of God’s offspring left His presence and came to earth to be children of mortal parents. Each of these spirits would come to Earth pure and clean, having inherited the propensity to sin, but guilty of nothing. They would sin only as they reached an age when they were capable of distinguishing good from evil.

What about the sins we committed in heaven. Did we sin while in Heaven?
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I was not aware that any doctrine had been revealed concerning the origin of the Holy Ghost. Can you expand on the concept that He is a Son of God?
You're probably right in calling me on that. We really don't have any revealed doctrine concerning the origin of the Holy Ghost. I was probably wrong in putting it the way I did. I was simply trying to explain the LDS belief in the Godhead (as opposed to the traditional Christian belief in the Trinity), and I probably didn't do a very good job of it.

What about the sins we committed in heaven. Did we sin while in Heaven?
Personally, I don't believe we did. I'm not sure what kinds of sins you think we may have committed, but I'm open to considering your opinion if you want to share it.
 

Thanda

Well-Known Member
You're probably right in calling me on that. We really don't have any revealed doctrine concerning the origin of the Holy Ghost. I was probably wrong in putting it the way I did. I was simply trying to explain the LDS belief in the Godhead (as opposed to the traditional Christian belief in the Trinity), and I probably didn't do a very good job of it.

No problem - just thought I might have missed something.

Personally, I don't believe we did. I'm not sure what kinds of sins you think we may have committed, but I'm open to considering your opinion if you want to share it.

My best understanding of sin consists of acting against the light that has been revealed to us. Since we all developed to different levels of intelligence, knowledge, righteousness and power in the pre-existence it seems consistent to me that we must have had differing levels of obedience (since spiritual progress is gained only on condition of obedience).

So basically I believe that when God told us to look right some looked right, others didn't turn their heads and others looked left.

Clearly, also, the devil sinned else he would not have been cast out of heaven. And clearly that sin was not his first (since he was a "liar from the beginning").
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
No problem - just thought I might have missed something.



My best understanding of sin consists of acting against the light that has been revealed to us. Since we all developed to different levels of intelligence, knowledge, righteousness and power in the pre-existence it seems consistent to me that we must have had differing levels of obedience (since spiritual progress is gained only on condition of obedience).

So basically I believe that when God told us to look right some looked right, others didn't turn their heads and others looked left.

Clearly, also, the devil sinned else he would not have been cast out of heaven. And clearly that sin was not his first (since he was a "liar from the beginning").
Hmmm. You've made some good points. I'll have to give them some thought.
 
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