The place of Women in Quran.

[Link]

It's describing the way men are suppose to lift women moral sense and sense of value, in this context, it warns, if you fear disloyalty, do not act on your fears, admonish them, but don't do this in the bed room and rather have intercourse with them. Then concludes "Therefore if they obey you do not seek a way against them verily God is Exalted Great".

And God is sought in refuge from Iblis and his dark magic.

 

[coconut theology]

You should've proven and quoted it from Quran or else you won't understand it.

I am not sure how you missed this post:

Muhammad allowed Mutah [Mut'a], hired prostitutes, a temporary marriage for sex, in exchange for gifts, and while some have said that Muhammad later forbade this on the Day of Khaibar [see below] though there was nothing stated of permanence, but merely for that time being, while others yet say that Muhammad never forbade this, but it was only much later that 'Umar forbade it after the death of Muhammad, and others still yet say, it was never forbidden, while others still say that there are certain conditions that are illegal [according to Shari'ah], but still allowed in the Qur'an [Surah 5:87 (al-Hilali-Khan translation) or also Surah 5:90 (Pickthall translation), etc] and as example was still practised long after the death of Muhammad, in the days of Abu Bakr and 'Umar [see Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Chapter 3, Number 3248-3249, etc]. Therefore, there are some Muslim sects, persons which still practice this, while others do not, even amidst differences over it. -

Surah 4:24 (Shakir translation) -

“... And all married women except those whom your right hands possess [this is] Allah's ordinance to you, and lawful for you are [all women] besides those, provided that you seek [them] with your property, taking [them] in marriage not committing fornication. Then as to those whom you profit by, give them their dowries as appointed; and there is no blame on you about what you mutually agree after what is appointed; surely Allah is Knowing, Wise. ...”​

Tafsir of al-Jalalayn on Surah 4:24 -

“... [4:24] And, forbidden to you are, wedded women, those with spouses, that you should marry them before they have left their spouses, be they Muslim free women or not; save what your right hands own, of captured [slave] girls, whom you may have sexual intercourse with, even if they should have spouses among the enemy camp, but only after they have been absolved of the possibility of pregnancy [after the completion of one menstrual cycle]; this is what God has prescribed for you (kitāba is in the accusative because it is the verbal noun). Lawful for you (read passive wa-uhilla, or active wa-ahalla), beyond all that, that is, except what He has forbidden you of women, is that you seek, women, using your wealth, by way of a dowry or a price, in wedlock and not, fornicating, in illicitly. Such wives as you enjoy thereby, and have had sexual intercourse with, give them their wages, the dowries that you have assigned them, as an obligation; you are not at fault in agreeing together, you and they, after the obligation, is waived, decreased or increased. God is ever Knowing, of His creatures, Wise, in what He has ordained for them. ...”​

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 51 -

“... Narrated Abu Jamra: I heard Ibn Abbas (giving a verdict) when he was asked about the Mut'a with the women, and he permitted it (Nikah-al-Mut'a). On that a freed slave of his said to him, “That is only when it is very badly needed and women are scarce." On that, Ibn 'Abbas said, “Yes.” ...”​

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 52 -

“... Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah and Salama bin Al-Akwa': While we were in an army, Allah's Apostle came to us and said, “You have been allowed to do the Mut'a (marriage), so do it.” Salama bin Al-Akwa' said: Allah's Apostle's said, “If a man and a woman agree (to marry temporarily), their marriage should last for three nights, and if they like to continue, they can do so; and if they want to separate, they can do so.” I do not know whether that was only for us or for all the people in general. Abu Abdullah (Al-Bukhari) said: 'Ali made it clear that the Prophet said, “The Mut'a marriage has been cancelled (made unlawful).” ...”​

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 86, Number 90 -

“... Narrated 'Abdullah: Nafi narrated to me that 'Abdullah said that Allah's Apostle forbade the Shighar. I asked Nafi', “What is the Shighar?” He said, “It is to marry the daughter of a man and marry one's daughter to that man (at the same time) without Mahr (in both cases); or to marry the sister of a man and marry one's own sister to that man without Mahr.” Some people said, “If one, by a trick, marries on the basis of Shighar, the marriage is valid but its condition is illegal.” The same scholar said regarding Al-Mut'a, “The marriage is invalid and its condition is illegal.” Some others said, “The Mut'a and the Shighar are permissible but the condition is illegal.” ...”​

Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 86, Number 91 -

“... Narrated Muhammad bin 'Ali: 'Ali was told that Ibn 'Abbas did not see any harm in the Mut'a marriage. 'Ali said, “Allah's Apostle forbade the Mut'a marriage on the Day of the battle of Khaibar and he forbade the eating of donkey's meat.” Some people said, “If one, by a tricky way, marries temporarily, his marriage is illegal.” Others said, “The marriage is valid but its condition is illegal.” ...”​

Sahih Muslim, Book 007, Chapter 32, Number 2874 -

“... Abd Nadra reported: While I was in the company of Jibir, a person came and said: There is difference of opinion amomg Ibn Abbas and Ibn Zubair about two Mut'as (benefits, Tamattul in Hajj and temporary marriage with women), whereupon jibir said: We have been doing this during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (way peace be upon him), and then 'Umar forbade us to do so, and we never resorted to them. ...”​

Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Chapter 3, Number 3243 -

“... Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported: We were on an expedition with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and we had no women with us. We said: Should we not have ourselves castrated? He (the Holy Prophet) forbade us to do so He then granted us permission that we should contract temporary marriage for a stipulated period giving her a garment, and 'Abdullah then recited this verse: 'Those who believe do not make unlawful the good things which Allah has made lawful for you, and do not transgress. Allah does not like trangressers" (al-Qur'an, v. 87). ...”​

Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Chapter 3, Number 3244 -

“... This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Jarir with the same chain of transmitters and he also recited this (above-mentioned verse) to us, but he did not say that 'Abdullah recited it. ...”​

Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Chapter 3, Number 3245 -

“... This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Isma'il with the same chain of transmitters (and the words are): “We were young, so we said: Allah's Messenger, should we not have ourselves castrated? But he (the narrator) did not say; We were on an expedition.” ...”​

Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Chapter 3, Number 3246 -

“... Jabir b. 'Abdullah and Salama b. al-Akwa' said: There came to us the proclaimer of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has granted you permission to benefit yourselves, i. e. to contract temporary marriage with women. ...”​

Sahih Muslim, Book 008, Chapter 3, Number 3247 -

“... Salama b. al. Akwa' and Jabir b. Abdullah reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to us and permitted us to contract temporary marriage. ...”​

[

 

[Link]

I didn't miss that post. That translation you rely on doesn't prove Muta. Translate it in a way that Muta is proven and things will get easier from then on.

 

[coconut theology]

It's probably because you are use to the translation. ...

وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ ۖ

And instead beat them (with your...)/have intercourse with them ....

I do not think you know Arabic at all:

IslamAwakened - Helping the West read the Quran

وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ

Does not ever mean "have intercourse".

It means:

"to heal, strike, propound as an example, put forth a parable, go, make a journey, travel, mix, avoid, take away, put a cover, shut, mention/declare/state, propound, set forth, compare, liken, seek a way, march on, set, impose, prevent, fight, traffic with anyone's property for a share in the profit, he made or caused to be or constituted, leave/forsake, take away thing (with 'an).

Depressed ground, hard ground in a plain, sandy valley, commissioner as he has to travel much.
Kind manner, lean, thin, similar, alike, the act of striking, a blow, going from place to place, vicissitude of life, affliction especially that which relates to one's person, as disease, death, degradation is common and general suffering.

beat, struck, smote, hit, the making a thing fall upon another thing, discipline/train, to cast forth, threw or flung it, seal/stamp, veil/curtain/cover/barrier, to point or make a sign, prohibit/hinder/prevent/withheld/restrain, collision, corrupted/disordered/disturbance/unsettled/confused, turn away, avoid, shun, fashion/mould/adapt, mention or set forth (e.g. a parable/example), explain, make a way, multiplying, go/travel, went away, it was or became long, excite/incite/urge/instigate, contend, dispose/accommodate, retract/digression/transition, to silence, tremble/shiver, share/portion.

Location where something is struck, wool or goat's hair separated or plucked or beaten with a mallet, sword, tent-peg, mallet." - IslamAwakened - Helping the West read the Quran
​

That is an Islamic source, citing Arabic. It even refers to the root words therein, notice, to strike, beat, etc:

 

[firedragon]

The Quran says "when you touched women" or "went inside woman" but we know it means had sex with them, it doesn't go to details, and almost always is referred to indirectly, and the details not explicitly mention, this in context of admonishing them but not to the extent that you talk to them about it the bedrooms nor the extent you stop having intercourse with them.

It's the same way you read "touched them" as in sex, or "come to your harvest from whence you want"... although none of those linguistically mean sex, they are understood by context, to mean that.

The same is true of the word here.

But bro, here it says idhrubuhunna

 

[firedragon]

I do not think you know Arabic at all:

IslamAwakened - Helping the West read the Quran

وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ

Does not ever mean "have intercourse".

It means:

"to heal, strike, propound as an example, put forth a parable, go, make a journey, travel, mix, avoid, take away, put a cover, shut, mention/declare/state, propound, set forth, compare, liken, seek a way, march on, set, impose, prevent, fight, traffic with anyone's property for a share in the profit, he made or caused to be or constituted, leave/forsake, take away thing (with 'an).

Depressed ground, hard ground in a plain, sandy valley, commissioner as he has to travel much.
Kind manner, lean, thin, similar, alike, the act of striking, a blow, going from place to place, vicissitude of life, affliction especially that which relates to one's person, as disease, death, degradation is common and general suffering.

beat, struck, smote, hit, the making a thing fall upon another thing, discipline/train, to cast forth, threw or flung it, seal/stamp, veil/curtain/cover/barrier, to point or make a sign, prohibit/hinder/prevent/withheld/restrain, collision, corrupted/disordered/disturbance/unsettled/confused, turn away, avoid, shun, fashion/mould/adapt, mention or set forth (e.g. a parable/example), explain, make a way, multiplying, go/travel, went away, it was or became long, excite/incite/urge/instigate, contend, dispose/accommodate, retract/digression/transition, to silence, tremble/shiver, share/portion.

Location where something is struck, wool or goat's hair separated or plucked or beaten with a mallet, sword, tent-peg, mallet." - IslamAwakened - Helping the West read the Quran
​

That is an Islamic source, citing Arabic. It even refers to the root words therein, notice, to strike, beat, etc:

but you see, ed lanes lexicon you quoted also uses dharb as an intransitive to leave or travel. Dharb is like a word used to count.

It’s great you used to d lanes lexicon, but you should check out other places where the Quran uses the same word. Quran bi Quran. Try and see how that approach works out.

cheers.

 

[danieldemol]

How do you make something moderate? Which side do you deem extreme and what do you deem moderate?

You make something moderate by taking the harshness out of it. The way I was using the word moderate I simply meant as opposed to extremely harsh.

I wasn’t aware we were discussing two particular sides here, perhaps you could explain what “side” you feel I was attributing harshness too.

 

[Link]

But bro, here it says idhrubuhunna

I know hitting (with what?) and in context of what?

 

[Link]

@coconut theology Parables and hyperbolic speech exists in every language. For example, when you say time to tie the knot, it doesn't mean a literal knot right? Same with most of the expressions of sex in Quran "if you touched women" doesn't mean that you touch them with your hands it means literally sex, but expressed that way, Same with beat (with your....), it doesn't say with what, as that would be vulgar, but you suppose to get the drift and understand it refers to intercourse. Also the word can also mean go, travel, move, so it can literally mean "move into them". The latter would be identical to "entered into them".

 

[firedragon]

You make something moderate by taking the harshness out of it. The way I was using the word moderate I simply meant as opposed to extremely harsh.

I wasn’t aware we were discussing two particular sides here, perhaps you could explain what “side” you feel I was attributing harshness too.

well, I asked since you used the word moderate as a dismissal of one persons analysis.

anyway, cheers.

 

[firedragon]

I know hitting (with what?) and in context of what?

I didn’t say hitting. I said idhribuhunna.

 

[firedragon]

وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ ۖ

And instead beat them (with your...)/have intercourse with them

How did that become "instead"?

 

[Cooky]

I do not think you know Arabic at all:

IslamAwakened - Helping the West read the Quran

وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ

Does not ever mean "have intercourse".

It means:

"to heal, strike, propound as an example, put forth a parable, go, make a journey, travel, mix, avoid, take away, put a cover, shut, mention/declare/state, propound, set forth, compare, liken, seek a way, march on, set, impose, prevent, fight, traffic with anyone's property for a share in the profit, he made or caused to be or constituted, leave/forsake, take away thing (with 'an).

Depressed ground, hard ground in a plain, sandy valley, commissioner as he has to travel much.
Kind manner, lean, thin, similar, alike, the act of striking, a blow, going from place to place, vicissitude of life, affliction especially that which relates to one's person, as disease, death, degradation is common and general suffering.

beat, struck, smote, hit, the making a thing fall upon another thing, discipline/train, to cast forth, threw or flung it, seal/stamp, veil/curtain/cover/barrier, to point or make a sign, prohibit/hinder/prevent/withheld/restrain, collision, corrupted/disordered/disturbance/unsettled/confused, turn away, avoid, shun, fashion/mould/adapt, mention or set forth (e.g. a parable/example), explain, make a way, multiplying, go/travel, went away, it was or became long, excite/incite/urge/instigate, contend, dispose/accommodate, retract/digression/transition, to silence, tremble/shiver, share/portion.

Location where something is struck, wool or goat's hair separated or plucked or beaten with a mallet, sword, tent-peg, mallet." - IslamAwakened - Helping the West read the Quran
​

That is an Islamic source, citing Arabic. It even refers to the root words therein, notice, to strike, beat, etc:

How did that become "instead"?

Is this a case of kitman in action, that we're witnessing here?

...Because things are not adding up logically or linguistically.

What does kitman mean

 

[Cooky]

Ambiguity is the main tell-tale sign of kitman, according to the source I provided in the previous post...

It seems pretty obvious to me, that's what's going on here.

 

[firedragon]

Is this a case of kitman in action, that we're witnessing here?

...Because things are not adding up logically or linguistically.

What does kitman mean

Did not understand what you imply

 

[Cooky]

Did not understand what you imply

Well, we see redefining of words (beat), and all kinds of linguistical gymnastics being performed here to make Islam "appear" to be pro-woman...

...Yet the concept of "kitman", as described in the following link, suggests that in some sects of Islam, it is permissible to pay lip-service, and confuse the meaning of words to conceal or camouflage the true teachings of Islam in order to make it appear more palatable.

What does kitman mean

 

[Samantha Rinne]

You mean taqiyya? Yes, I was thinking that too.

Not that these blatant lies matter. The fact that he feels like he has to defend his position means he's already lost. When you have to justify your religion, you know it's wrong.

Muslims and liberals are fond of citing the Inquisition and the Crusades as proof that "Christianity is just as bad". Sorry, but... the Inquisition was an attempt to determine false converts in lands that were high in Jewish and Muslim people. It really had little to do with witchcraft, that's a story that leftists make up to smear the faith. In Salem, it did, but that was also an extremely clique-ish sect that was probably getting ergot hallucinations, and the rest were exploiting the situation for payback or profit. No, the Inquisition was first and foremost, to torture suspect converts. And you may say "how cruel! How could they do that!" The answer lies in the lead up to the Crusades. The Crusades were NOT for some quest for the Holy Grail or similar nonsense. Rome had received word that the Hagia Sophia, along with much of Turkey, had been invaded. On the other side, Spain was being invaded. Unlike the pagans of much of Europe, they had little taste for reasoned debate, they were coming with their troops to settle European lands, they were coming with their men to breed with their women, and they were coming as "converts" to dilute their faith. Christianity had two choices, become extinct and let the world plunge into darkness once again, or push them back militarily, defend their women, and clean out their churches.

Christianity is constantly made to apologize for the false reasons of the Crusades. When was the last time Islam apologized (really apologized) for the invasions leading up to the Crusades?

 

[Cooky]

You mean taqiyya? Yes, I was thinking that too.

Yes, exactly. I just learned the word "kitman" today, which is different from taqiyya, in that taqiyya is lying performed in order to prevent persecution, while "kitman" is more specifically used to conceal truths in casual conversations such as this, in order to make Islam appear more palatable.

Obvious indications are the linguistical / logical gymnastics being performed here. Which clearly don't make sense.

 

[firedragon]

[

Well, we see redefining of words (beat), and all kinds of linguistical gymnastics being performed here to make Islam "appear" to be pro-woman...

...Yet the concept of "kitman", as described in the following link, suggests that in some sects of Islam, it is permissible to pay lip-service, and confuse the meaning of words to conceal or camouflage the true teachings of Islam in order to make it appear more palatable.

What does kitman mean

You mean kithmaan.

I don’t agree with your dismissal. Though I don’t agree at all with the interpretation of the op to call it intentional deception is an ad hominem and an invalid argument.

and the discussion is not on the word “beat”, it’s in the word “dharb “. Dharb doesn’t mean beat. In fusha atthuraath it is a simple word like “do” or “get”.

No, even that explanation of mine doesn’t suffice.

what you should do is as I said practice Quran bi Quran.

peace.

 

[Cooky]

You mean kithmaan.

I don’t agree with your dismissal. Though I don’t agree at all with the interpretation of the op to call it intentional deception is an ad hominem and an invalid argument.

and the discussion is not on the word “beat”, it’s in the word “dharb “. Dharb doesn’t mean beat. In fusha atthuraath it is a simple word like “do” or “get”.

No, even that explanation of mine doesn’t suffice.

what you should do is as I said practice Quran bi Quran.

peace.

Kithmaan shows no results on the www.

...But I think it's clear this thread is intended to shine a positive light on Islam's treatment of women, at any cost. Even if it requires ambiguity, and the redefining of words.