The Physiology of Homosexuality

[sojourner]

I said the Bible has verses that state homosexuality is an abomination.

And since homosexuality is also part of who a person is, then (if you're correct), the bible asserts that some people are an abomination, which means that they are second-class citizens -- especially if they deserve to be stoned for it.

But, as I asserted before, the bible doesn't address the homosexual orientation, because the writers were unaware of homosexual orientation. The bible merely addresses acts of violence and acts that are counterintuitive to the cultural expression of honor/shame.

No it doesn't. I understand why you keep saying that, and it is a fine point, but it is not true. But the fact remains that the majority of people in the US (again, this is fact, not hyperbole) believe that homosexuals should not be the way they are. Many are becoming tolerant from a civil rights standpoint but, when asked, they still think it is abnormal to be gay. After all, homosexuals are only 1.7% of the population. That is not just a minority. It is a "micrority".

Yes, it does. "Not be the way they are" = "broken" = lesser status.
The size of the minority only matters in the sense that, the smaller it is, the more vulnerable to systemic violence it is.

Whatever.

Yes. Dismiss me -- the same way you're dismissing the holistic status of the homosexual.

But I disagree that concessions don't help.

That's what the Catholic Church thought during WWII when millions of Jews were exterminated.

Do you claim to know the minds of all leaders in the church?

No, but I do claim to recognize systemic violence when I see it -- as well as complicity in that violence.

I don't claim to be the judge. I just know my side of the fence better than you do just as you you know yours better than I.

You're question wasn't a real question -- hoping to poll all Christian homosexuals who go to evangelical churches. It was, rather, meant to justify your position that homosexuals should not be ordained. And that's a judgment. It forces an attitude of sour grapes onto people who may not feel that way at all.

I'm perpetuating violence here? Why do you always have to take things to a different level. Your one-up-manship is really getting annoying. Can you take it down a notch or six?

Oh, I'm sorry. Does my assertion that you're complicit in the systemic violence offend you? Perhaps your assertion that homosexuals are "not normal" offends some, too.

Only when complicity is drug out into the light of discovery will it end.

It takes intelligence, insight and patience to see the difference. I know you are not unintelligent.

Huh. it's more likely to take "blindness," willful ignorance," and "stubborness" to perceive that there is a difference.

It's clear that you believe this. Getting the other 98.3% to believe it is the trick. Hint: Gay Pride parades don't help anymore than ignorant and offensive Christians carrying signs that say "God hates ****" helps their position.

It ain't just me. Read the DSM IV.

"genetically altered" is not accurate as the reason for homosexuality.

Neither is "human fault."

I applaud your efforts to advocate on behalf of homosexuality. But I still don't think you perceive it as normal, and that's your stumbling block, because it places you squarely in the "complicit" camp.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

And since homosexuality is also part of who a person is, then (if you're correct), the bible asserts that some people are an abomination, which means that they are second-class citizens -- especially if they deserve to be stoned for it.

But, as I asserted before, the bible doesn't address the homosexual orientation, because the writers were unaware of homosexual orientation. The bible merely addresses acts of violence and acts that are counterintuitive to the cultural expression of honor/shame.

Yes, it does. "Not be the way they are" = "broken" = lesser status.
The size of the minority only matters in the sense that, the smaller it is, the more vulnerable to systemic violence it is.

Yes. Dismiss me -- the same way you're dismissing the holistic status of the homosexual.

That's what the Catholic Church thought during WWII when millions of Jews were exterminated.

No, but I do claim to recognize systemic violence when I see it -- as well as complicity in that violence.

You're question wasn't a real question -- hoping to poll all Christian homosexuals who go to evangelical churches. It was, rather, meant to justify your position that homosexuals should not be ordained. And that's a judgment. It forces an attitude of sour grapes onto people who may not feel that way at all.

Oh, I'm sorry. Does my assertion that you're complicit in the systemic violence offend you? Perhaps your assertion that homosexuals are "not normal" offends some, too.

Only when complicity is drug out into the light of discovery will it end.

Huh. it's more likely to take "blindness," willful ignorance," and "stubborness" to perceive that there is a difference.

It ain't just me. Read the DSM IV.

Neither is "human fault."

I applaud your efforts to advocate on behalf of homosexuality. But I still don't think you perceive it as normal, and that's your stumbling block, because it places you squarely in the "complicit" camp.

:clap Hear hear!

 

[fantome profane]

Getting the other 98.3% to believe it is the trick.

You keep using that 98.3% figure, implying that every single person who does not actually identify as being gay is therefore opposed to homosexuality. An this is clearly not true.

Polls show that support for same sex marriage has been increasing rapidly in recent years. And if it is still a majority that opposes it (and I am not sure it is), it is a very slight and rapidly shrinking majority. You 98.3% is hyperbole, despite your claim that it isn't.

 

[waitasec]

If you did, then I will answer that, too. Yes, I do believe that there is same sex attraction that is not biologically based and that is where CHOICE becomes a factor. But we have been focusing on the notion that most homosexuals express that their orientation was NOT a choice and therefore WAS biologically based.

so what if it is...

 

[Mr. Skittles]

Research into homosexuality is needed as much as research into heterosexuality is needed.

Most people don't feel heterosexuality needs all that much research - same goes for homosexuality, bisexuality, etc etc.

HUMAN sexuality, however...

What is there to know about heterosexuality that isn't already known? The only research that is even interesting is whether monogamy is a socially constructed belief.

 

[Mr. Skittles]

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say the plight of homosexuals are different than that of those who sought for racially equality. I understand gays would argue that there is no difference but as far as phenotype is concerned, a gay white guy in the 1940's can hide their sexuality but a black man cannot hide their skin tone. I'm sorry but you cannot compare the two even if you would argue that hiding one's sexuality is indeed being untrue to thyself.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Equality is equality. I see no difference.

 

[methylatedghosts]

Except for the extreme emotional burdens that these conditions put on these individuals, they can be completely normal (without disability) in all other regards...as normal as humans can be in today's world.

Don't you dare. Don't you DARE suggest that being homosexual puts "extreme emotional burdens" on anyone. That is so far from the truth you couldn't glimpse it with the Hubble. It's the attitudes of others that create the emotional burdens. It's the hate plastered all over by others who fear it. THAT creates the emotional burden. Don't try to pin that on LGBT people.

 

[methylatedghosts]

What is there to know about heterosexuality that isn't already known? The only research that is even interesting is whether monogamy is a socially constructed belief.

Well then. There you go.

Well done!:clap

 

[-Peacemaker-]

And how do we know that the homosexual orientation is "deemed sinful by the Christian God?" That "fact" isn't mentioned in the bible? Did you hear that from some religious leader? how does s/he know?

Extending unconditional love means giving one the benefit of the doubt.

It's difficult to reason with "Christians" who reject the authority of Scripture. I can't begin to imagine what you would say constitutes "the Bible'

 

[methylatedghosts]

It's difficult to reason with "Christians" who reject the authority of Scripture. I can't begin to imagine what you would say constitutes "the Bible'

I've actually found that flavour of Christian to be easier to reason with.

Guess it's all in where you're coming from.

 

[Curious George]

On vacation, but had to chime UN via my Droid. Speaking as a heterosexual male and thus adding to the 1.7% that was mentioned, I fully support the concept of homosexuality as normal. Has it occurred to anyone here that your actual sexual organs are also a result of chemicals and hormones present during your time in the womb. I tell the truth. Look it up. In fact the absence of certain chemicals and hormones would lead to all members of our spiecies possessing vaginas. No I am not certain how everyone here feels but I like to think that my penis is normal and natural. I do not know why anyone would be getting tired of the "bolder and bolder" lbgt community either. I realize they may seem to some as unreasonable asking not to deal with blatant hate, unfounded accusations, illogical presumptions, unfair-religious based biases, derogatory speech, obvious oppression, crude harassment, unprovoked abuse, assault, and murder. But, can anyone stand up and rationally defend the treatment of the "bolder and bolder" lbgt community without using faith based arguments? No? Well since our law is not based on faith, then I can see no reason whatsoever to oppose the lbgt community having equal rights, dignity, and respect. I am not tired of the lbgt commumity, rather I am tired of bigotry. As far as the original question - of course sexuality is based on genes, hormones, and chemicals. I believe you would have a hard time finding anything that wasn't. So if we are going to use this research to alter anyone let us fix the heterosexuals who should be gays. For like all bigotry the hatred based on sexuality will only dissolve through shared experience of those classes between whom the bigotry exists. Solution? We simply need more homosexuals in the world, or we at least need the homosexuals in hiding (guessing mostly Christians in the u.s. at least)to embrace their natural, normal sexuality so those near them can more likely realize that homosexuality is not a "genetic disease," or even an abnormality.

 

[fantome profane]

No I am not certain how everyone here feels but I like to think that my penis is normal and natural.

I like to think that my penis is paranormal and preternatural.

 

[sojourner]

I'm going to take a shot in the dark and say the plight of homosexuals are different than that of those who sought for racially equality. I understand gays would argue that there is no difference but as far as phenotype is concerned, a gay white guy in the 1940's can hide their sexuality but a black man cannot hide their skin tone. I'm sorry but you cannot compare the two even if you would argue that hiding one's sexuality is indeed being untrue to thyself.

I'm not comparing the victims. I'm comparing the systemic way in which they are victimized.

 

[sojourner]

they can be completely normal (without disability) in all other regards

So, there's still abnormality present? Why can't they just be "normal?" Why does there have to be a stigma attached to who they are?

 

[sojourner]

It's difficult to reason with "Christians" who reject the authority of Scripture. I can't begin to imagine what you would say constitutes "the Bible'

First of all, who are you to judge the veracity of my Christianity? How dare you place my spiritual condition in quotation marks, as if you're in some sort of position to make that judgment call. This is the same kind of self-righteous judgment that keeps homosexual individuals beat down.

Second, what's difficult is reasoning with Christians who won't reason -- those who simply take the texts at face value without considering the historical, religious, cultural, textual, literary, and theological stances of the writers and how those stances differ from our own.

The authority of scripture is governed by love and mercy.

I can't imagine what you would say constitutes Jesus' nature.


You need more training, Mr. "Christian-In-Training."

 

[sojourner]

On vacation, but had to chime UN via my Droid. Speaking as a heterosexual male and thus adding to the 1.7% that was mentioned, I fully support the concept of homosexuality as normal. Has it occurred to anyone here that your actual sexual organs are also a result of chemicals and hormones present during your time in the womb. I tell the truth. Look it up. In fact the absence of certain chemicals and hormones would lead to all members of our spiecies possessing vaginas. No I am not certain how everyone here feels but I like to think that my penis is normal and natural. I do not know why anyone would be getting tired of the "bolder and bolder" lbgt community either. I realize they may seem to some as unreasonable asking not to deal with blatant hate, unfounded accusations, illogical presumptions, unfair-religious based biases, derogatory speech, obvious oppression, crude harassment, unprovoked abuse, assault, and murder. But, can anyone stand up and rationally defend the treatment of the "bolder and bolder" lbgt community without using faith based arguments? No? Well since our law is not based on faith, then I can see no reason whatsoever to oppose the lbgt community having equal rights, dignity, and respect. I am not tired of the lbgt commumity, rather I am tired of bigotry. As far as the original question - of course sexuality is based on genes, hormones, and chemicals. I believe you would have a hard time finding anything that wasn't. So if we are going to use this research to alter anyone let us fix the heterosexuals who should be gays. For like all bigotry the hatred based on sexuality will only dissolve through shared experience of those classes between whom the bigotry exists. Solution? We simply need more homosexuals in the world, or we at least need the homosexuals in hiding (guessing mostly Christians in the u.s. at least)to embrace their natural, normal sexuality so those near them can more likely realize that homosexuality is not a "genetic disease," or even an abnormality.

Thank you for saying this. Frubals.

 

[sojourner]

I like to think that my penis is paranormal and preternatural.

does it have a little red "S" on it?

:super:

 

[waitasec]

It's difficult to reason with "Christians" who reject ....

people

I can't begin to imagine what you would say constitutes....

a person

 

[mycorrhiza]

It's difficult to reason with "Christians" who reject the authority of Scripture. I can't begin to imagine what you would say constitutes "the Bible'

The NT was put together long after Jesus was dead. Why is it necessary to accept, for example, Paul to be a Christian?