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Featured The Pharoah of the Exodus was the Hyksos king Apophis.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Ario, Feb 20, 2019.

  1. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Writing a story over the ruins of Jericho is not so farfetched IMO. Jericho was felled by earthquakes many times and at other times was abandoned because the spring dried up.
     
  2. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

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    The region has been settled for thousands of years. With civilisations coming and going, and leaving ruins and artifacts behind, it's to be expected for mythological retellings and folk memories to grow up in such an area. Sodom and the other one were also likely destroyed by earthquake, with the apocalyptic special effects the result of various natural disasters coupled with oral retelling. So it's very possible for archaeologists to find evidence that S&G were real places. That does not, by itself, suggest the story of God smiting them is true.
     
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  3. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The linguistic similarity noted here, as well as the common depictions of the Apiru involved in manual labor, is compelling evidence these people could have been the Hebrews during their stay in Egypt.

    Oftentimes in antiquity if a ruler wanted to memorialize a battle, or victory, or a eulogy on a headstone, they would erect stone or granite slabs with inscriptions on them. These slabs were called steles. Much knowledge of ancient Egyptian literature and history has been gleamed from steles.

    Inscriptions from the reign of Amenhotep II have been found on a stele in Memphis. The stele dates from 1420 B.C.E. It is a list of spoils from his Syrian campaign. Apiru are mentioned as being taken captive and brought back to Egypt.

    "List of the plunder which his majesty carried off. Princes of Retenu (Syria): 127Brothers of princes: 179Apiru: 3600Shasu (Bedouin): 16,200 Khuru (Hurrians) : 26,300 Neges (Nuhashians):
    15,070"


    Ancient Egyptian Literature and the Habiru

    Bedouin life was symbiotic with a specific village, town or oasis. The Bedu took the herds to find pasture.. and they provided meat and leather to their village.. The village they were attached to provided tools, pottery. textiles and grain. (This isn't trivia. Its important)

    Generally speaking there was also some familial relationship so the Bedu would take sheep or goats that belonged to the villagers with them in their migration to find pasture.

    So.. an UNAFILIATED tribe had a very difficult life because they lacked this symbiotic relationship.. It has been theorized that this is the reason the early Hebrews wanted land for themselves in the hill country.
     
  4. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Again, I agree. I think Sodom and Gomorrah were probably long gone before Abraham's donkey caravan ever showed up.
     
  5. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Yes ! They controlled Egypt with all its horses and chariots, didn't you know that sooda?
     
  6. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    No.. There is ZERO evidence that the Hebrews had horses. The Hebrews used donkeys.. Abraham didn't have camels or horses.. Everyone traveled on foot.. including the Greek army, Syrian army and Roman occupation army.. The only horses were those that belonged to some Roman officers 1200 years AFTER Moses.
     
  7. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Well you are entailed to THINK anything that you like to THINK, although what you choose is THINK seems always proven to be wrong, and there is biblical evidence that the Israeliteshad horses in the days of Solomon as well as when they controlled Egypt.
     
  8. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    The Jews never controlled Egypt.. LOLOL :p

    Israel was too stony for horses.. Solomon's stables were storage rooms that were converted to stables by the Crusaders in 1099.

    You should probably stick with reading Joseph Smith's Book of Moses.
     
  9. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

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    Alexander's Greeks had horses, the Companion cavalry and Bucephalos were pretty famous in their own right.
     
  10. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Sooda wrote...….. The Jews never controlled Egypt.. LOLOL :p

    The anointed...….. Wrong again girl. Josephus the historian identifies the Shepherd Kings as Israelites, who departed Egypt in 1567 B.C., 40 years before the fall of Jericho

    Sooda wrote...…..Israel was too stony for horses.. Solomon's stables were storage rooms that were converted to stables by the Crusaders in 1099.

    The Anointed...……. O, I see, you believe that Israel was too stony for the Israelite horses, but not too stony for the Crusaders horses. Do you honestly believe that the people you are trying to convince, that the words of the Lord cannot be trusted, are idiotic enough to believe that Israel was too stony for the Israelite horses, but not for the Crusaders horses? Give us all a break girl.


    Sooda wrote...….You should probably stick with reading Joseph Smith's Book of Moses.


    The Anointed...….. Not being a member of the LDS, I have never read the Book of Moses as written by Joseph Smith, but I did try reading the book of Mormon once, but it couldn't hold my interest.

    When You read the bible seven times as is your claim, you must have missed 2 Kings 23: 11; all seven times: "And he (King Josiah) also removed the horses that the kings of Judah dedicated to the worship of the sun, and he burned the chariots used in this worship. These were kept in the temple courtyard near the gate and not far from the living quarters of Nathan-melech, a high official.
     
    #50 The Anointed, Apr 4, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2019
  11. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Dueteronomy 17:16 expressly forbids the king of Israel to increase greatly the number of his horses “nor cause the people to return to Egypt to the end that he should multiply his horses”.

    First Kings 1:33
    mentions Solomon riding a donkey on the day he was recognized as the new king of Israel. Other instances of leaders riding donkeys are
    Judges 5:10
    ;
    10:4
    ;
    12:14
    ; and
    2 Samuel 16:2
    .

    You are 400 years too early. Josephus did NOT identify the Hyksos as Hebrews.. and he was mistaken in calling them Shepard Kings.
    In the time of David, the Arameans and Canaanites had large numbers of chariots and war horses.

    But strangely enough, the Israelites still made no use of them. David is reported to have destroyed the animals and it was Absalom, a very interesting character in the story of David’s family, who was the first to have a chariot and horses (II Samuel 15: 1).

    Solomon made up for his father’s oversight. He is said to have had 1400 chariots and 12,000 horsemen (I Kings 10:26), and developed an extensive international trade in horses and chariots.

    Ahab’s interest in horses appears from the story of the drought which occurred during his reign and his concern to find grass to save them (I Kings 18:5).

    Although horses were used almost exclusively for military purposes – hardly at all in farming – the Israelites had no cavalry as we know it.

    Much later, during the time of the Maccabees, the Jews could field only infantry against the Syrians.

    Ancient Mesopotamia Animals,horses,donkeys,ongers,oxen
    www.ancientmesopotamians.com/ancient-mesopotamian-animals.html
    Animals in Ancient Mesopotamia. Be it horses pulling carts or war chariots; they became one of the most useful beasts in the entire civilization. Horse breeding emerged as one of the most profitable businesses of all times in this era.

     
  12. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Finding horse bones in Israel is very rare. They did find some in Jaffa and concluded the site had been a battlefield.. 17th century AD.

    Barak and Deborah fought iron chariots with only infantry (Judges 4:14–16).

    David rode a mule rather than a stallion (1 Kings 1:33,38,44)

    And why Solomon required chariot cities with thousands of horses (2 Chronicles 8:6) ??? So much about Solomon's reign has been exaggerated and embellished.

    The stables at Megiddo were built by Omri.. The stables in Jerusalem were storerooms until 1099 when the Crusaders converted them to stables.
     
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  13. Kangaroo Feathers

    Kangaroo Feathers Hardline moderate

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    That's great. My point about Greek cavalry stands.
     
  14. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Pasture is probably better up around Galilee.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    sooda wrote...….. Dueteronomy 17:16 expressly forbids the king of Israel to increase greatly the number of his horses “nor cause the people to return to Egypt to the end that he should multiply his horses”.

    The Anointed……. So the king of Israel would have many horses, but he was forbidden to greatly increase the number of his horses.

    soda wrote...…. mentions Solomon riding a donkey on the day he was recognized as the new king of Israel. Other instances of leaders riding donkeys are

    The Anointed……. Solomon was a prototype of Jesus, the King, who came riding on a donkey, it was concerning Solomon the prototype of Jesus, that the Lord said in 2 Samuel 7: 14; “I shall be his Father and he shall be my Son.”

    Sooda wrote……. You are 400 years too early. Josephus did NOT identify the Hyksos as Hebrews.. and he was mistaken in calling them Shepard Kings.

    The Anointed……… By saying that Josephus was mistaken in calling the Israelites the Shepherd Kings, you admit that he did say that they were the Hyksos, but you THINK he was mistaken.

    Sooda wrote……. In the time of David, the Arameans and Canaanites had large numbers of chariots and war horses.

    to have a chariot and horses (II Samuel 15: 1).

    Solomon made up for his father’s oversight. He is said to have had 1400 chariots and 12,000 horsemen (I Kings 10:26), and developed an extensive international trade in horses and chariots.



    The Anointed……… OH! So the Canaanites, who lived in that COUNTRY which the Israelites took possession of, which you say was too STONEY for Israelite horses, had large numbers of Chariots and war horses, and that Solomon later developed an extensive international trade in horses and chariots. Good heaven girl, you crack me up with your contradictory ridiculous statements.

    Sooda wrote……. But strangely enough, the Israelites still made no use of them. David is reported to have destroyed the animals and it was Absalom, a very interesting character in the story of David’s family, who was the first.

    Ahab’s interest in horses appears from the story of the drought which occurred during his reign and his concern to find grass to save them (I Kings 18:5).


    The Anointed……… 2 Samuel 15: 1; “In the course of time, Absalom provided himself with a chariot and horses and with fifty men to run ahead of him.”

    1 Kings 4: 26; Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

    1 King 10: 25-28. “Year after year, everyone who came brought a gift-articles of silver and gold, robes, weapons and spices, and horses and mules. 26Solomon accumulated chariots and horses; he had fourteen hundred chariots and twelve thousand horses, which he kept in the chariot cities and also with him in Jerusalem. 27The
    king made silver as common in Jerusalem as stones, and cedar as plentiful as sycamore-fig trees in the foothills. 28Solomon's horses were imported from Egypt and from Kue-the royal merchants purchased them
    from Kue at the current price. 29They imported a chariot from Egypt for six hundred shekels of silver, and a horse for a hundred and fifty. They also exported them to all the kings of the Hittites and of the Arameans.

    1 Kings 18: 4-5; “Ahab had said to Obadiah, "Go through the land to all the springs and valleys. Maybe we can find some grass to keep the horses and mules alive so we will not have to kill any of our animals."

    1 Kings 22: 4; “So he (Ahab the King of Israel) asked Jehoshaphat, (The King of Judah) "Will you go with me to fight against Ramoth Gilead?" Jehoshaphat replied to the king of Israel, "I am as you are, my people as your people, my horses as your horses."

    Would you like me to go on and on, revealing every verse in the Holy Scriptures that reveal, the Israelites fought their battles from chariots drawn by horses?

    BTW, You did say that you had read the bible seven times, didn’t you? ? ? ? ? ?
     
  16. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Scholars have stated the Josephus was in error to call the Hyksos Shepard Kings,, and that is easy to look up,

    Solomon's wealth and the size of his kingdom is grossly exaggerated, A consensus among scholars has emerged that the Bible was heavily edited in the 5th century BCE, long after the supposed events, while British excavations of the Edomite highlands in the 1970s-80s suggested the Iron Age had not even come to Edom until the 7th century BCE..

    The copper mines in Jordan were never Solomon's. They were Egyptian and then taken over by the Edomites.

    Archaeologists have found almost no evidence for horses. The idea that Solomon had 40,000 horses is a joke. The Jews rode donkeys because they were more nimble on stony ground and because pasture near Jerusalem was about nil.
     
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  17. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Domestic Animals in Ancient Israel: The Donkey

    excerpt:

    But when we turn to the Hebrew literature, we do not find such jokes about the donkey. Rather the animal is known for its strength and its loyalty to its master (Genesis 49:14; Numbers 22:30).

    Indeed, the ruler of Shechem in the time of Jacob was named Hamor, the Semitic word for donkey. To call the man Hamor apparently did not create the same effect in ancient society as calling a man Eeyore—or worse—in our own society.

    The donkey, not the horse, was ordinarily used for riding. It was ridden with a saddle and often with a bit (Numbers 22:21; Proverbs 26:3). It was ridden by all classes of people: by Abraham, by Balaam the seer from Mesopotamia, by women and children, and by king David’s household (Genesis 22:3; Numbers 22:21; Exodus 4:20; 2 Samuel 16:2).

    As a work animal, the donkey carried burdens and pulled the plow (Genesis 42:26; Isaiah 30:24). When Jacob’s sons went to Egypt to buy food, they brought the grain back on pack asses (Genesis 42:26).

    Later in the story, Joseph sent a caravan of ten donkeys laden with “the good things of Egypt” and ten laden with grain, bread, and other provisions (Genesis 45:23). In an Egyptian tomb dating around 1890 b.c. we find a painting of such a donkey caravan, although the two little donkeys in the picture do not make much of a caravan.

    The painting depicts Semitic men, women, and children traveling on foot while their donkeys carry baggage and two more children.

    By later Jewish times there are indications that the donkey was regarded as a lowly beast. The Wisdom of Sirach says, “Fodder and a stick and burdens for an ***; bread and discipline and work for a servant” (33:24). We note, too, that Rabbi Judah declares donkey-drivers scalawags:

    ***-drivers are most of them wicked, camel-drivers are most of them proper folk, sailors are most of them saintly, the best among physicians is destined for Gehenna, and the most seemly among butchers is a partner of Amalek. (Mishnah Kiddushin 4.14)

    In any case, Zechariah portrayed Israel’s future king coming not on a horse, the beast of war, but “humble and riding on an ***” (Zechariah 9:90).

    The animal known to us as the donkey is called by at least three names in Hebrew. Athon is the she-donkey and appears in the Bible about thirty-five times, mostly in the story about Balaam and his donkey (Numbers 22) and in the story about the lost donkeys of Saul’s father (1 Samuel 9).

    The name ayir is infrequent. It is generally thought to refer to the animal’s young. The most common name (about 100 times) is hamor. Possibly the word means “the reddish animal.” Spanish burro is similarly derived from Greek purros, red. The word hamor is, however, enough like the sound of a donkey that I wonder if it is imitative. Pronounce it aloud a few times with a falling inflection and strong emphasis on the initial laryngeal, and you will see what I mean.
     
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  18. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    Samuel 15: 1; After this Absalom provided a chariot and HORSES for himself and an escort of fifty men, etc. - - - - - So much for your no HORSES in Israel.

    1 Kings 18: 4-5; “Ahab had said to Obadiah, "Go through the land to all the springs and valleys. Maybe we can find some grass to keep the HORSES and mules alive so we will not have to kill any of our animals." - - - - - So much for your no HORSES in Israel.

    1 Kings 20: 1; King Benhadad of Syria gathered all his troops, and supported by thirty two other rulers with their horses and chariots, he marched up and laid siege to Samaria, etc.

    The ground wasn’t too stony for Benhadad’s horses, was it?

    After the Israelite forces defeated the huge Syrian army under King Benhadad, Ahab showed mercy of Benhadad and invited him to get into his [Ahab’s] chariot with him. 1 Kings 20: 34. - - - - - So much for your no HORSES in Israel.

    1 Kings 22: 4; “So he (Ahab the King of Israel) asked Jehoshaphat, (The King of Judah) "Will you go with me to fight against Ramoth Gilead?" Jehoshaphat replied to the king of Israel, "I am as you are, my people as your people, my HORSES as your HORSES." - - - - - So much for your no HORSES in Israel.

    2 Kings 3: 7; Jehoshaphat the King of Judah, supplies men and HORSES to support his son, Jehoram/Joram, the king of Israel, in his battle against the King of Moab. - - - - - So much for your no HORSES in Israel.

    2 Kings 7: When Jehoram/Joram, the son-in-law of Ahab, was king of Israel, Benhadad laid siege to Samaria, starving the inhabitants, who ate their donkeys, horses, and even their children. But the Lord caused the Syrian army to abandon their camp and run away. Jehoram was wary and thought it was a trick by the Syrians to get them to leave that city, and would not let anyone go out to investigate, etc,

    Verse 13; But one of the officials said; “The people here in the city are doomed anyway, like those that have already died. So let’s send some men with five of the HORSES that are left, etc. - - - - - So much for your no HORSES in Israel.

    Jehoram/Joram the King of Israel, Son of Jehoshaphat the King of Judah, and the son-in-law of King Ahab, had married Ahab’s daughter ‘Athaliah,’ who was the mother of King Ahaziah the king of Judah . And in 2 Kings 9: 20-21; we see that King Joram, his son King Ahaziah and Jehu, who kills both Joram and Ahaziah, are all riding in HORSE drawn chariots. - - - - - So much for your no HORSES in Israel.

    2 Kings 10: 2-8; Ahab had 70 descendants living in Samaria, Jehu sent the leaders in that city a letter, Saying; “You are in charge of Ahab’s descendants, and you have at your disposal chariots, HORSES [I repeat, HORSES] and fortified cities, etc. Jehu then demanded that they give him the 70 heads of Ahab’s descendants, or choose themselves a king and prepare to do Battle, etc. In no time at all, Jehu had the heads of Ahab’s 70 descendants. - - - - - So much for your no HORSES in Israel.

    2 Kings 14: 20; The body of the assassinated King Amazaih, was carried back to Jerusalem on a HORSE and was buried in the Royal Tombs in the city of David. - - - - - So much for your no HORSES in Israel.

    2 Kings 23: 11; King Josiah removed the HORSES and burned the chariots that were used in the worship of the sun, - - - - - So much for your no HORSES in Israel.

    OK, If you’re still not convinced that the Israelites had horse drawn chariots that they used in fighting their wars etc, we will move on to 1st and 2nd Chronicles, in order to reveal beyond any doubt, that the Israelites did have horses.

    But surely someone who CLAIMS to have read the bible seven times would have known that.
     
  19. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  20. sooda

    sooda Veteran Member

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    Everything about Solomon is grossly exaggerated.

    Bebhadad was from Damascus.

    I don't know if the Persian Onager was domesticated, but it could eat the tough grass .

    Persian onager - Wikipedia
     
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