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The period after death

waitasec

Veteran Member
If we could stop sinning we would not die.

explain why a 3 yr old would die from a brain tumor...yeah, too much sin in his little life.
ok, how about free will?
well lets see, there were complications during pregnancy and the parents decided to take the baby to term...hmmm.

explain why a mother and her 6 month old baby die from a freak accident in central park because of a tree branch breaking off and crushing them...
according to what you said, the mother is understandable but the baby?

and explain why would these faith healings become faith deaths.
james 2:17-faith without works is dead.
how do you interpret this scripture? to me is is says, walk the walk...
well explain to a faithful parent who trusted god to heal their child only to let them die a painful needles death...
at least their faith is alive because they believed god would heal their child
hmmm, a dead child vs. living faith....

edit: i realize i'm off topic...but i had to respond to your nonsense....
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
waitasec-

Your are not alone with your observations, and an inquiring heart wants to know.

I know a couple that in the wife's seventh month of pregnancy her appendix burst.
Emergency surgery was postponed because the doctors could not agree.
Finally after hours passed they operated and the baby only lived 28 hours.
The doctors never even had the baby put in an incubator because he was 5lbs.

At the funeral the clergy said God needed another angel in heaven.
I can not begin to tell you the sickening feeling left by such crazy words.
Who, in the name of common sense, would even think such a thing yet say it?

At around the same time I was playing chess with an atheist who was reading the Bible.
Since I could not answer his questions I went and purchased a study reference Bible and began searching for answers to his and my questions.

One day I met an older man with Bible in hand and simply said," I have some good news for you". He helped me locate Scriptures by topic or subject, and I did learn that Solomon wrote that time and chance or unforeseen occurrences befall all of us.
Wrong place, wrong time as the mother and 6 mo. old baby in Central park.
Or the 8 year old girl sitting at a picnic table with others and a tree fell killing only her.
Jesus showed it was not sin that was involved when the tower of Siloam fell killing 18 people. Please compare Ecc. 9v11 and Jesus words at Luke 13 vs4,5.

If Adam had obeyed God he would have never died.
Romans [5vs12,19] shows because of Adam, our family head, sin came into the world.
With sin comes sickness and death due to inherited imperfection from Adam.
Also, by Adam listening to Satan, then Adam was choosing Satan to be god over him.
2nd Cor 4v4 calls Satan the 'god' of this world of badness, not our Creator.
Our Creator did not interfere with Adam's free will choice rejecting him.
Time does allow us to be born and choose who to worship.

Now is the time for 'spiritual' healing.
People that think today's 'faith healing' are from Scripture are wrong.
Who Jesus healed was 100% cured.
So-called faith healers or healings do not 'cure' all they contact.
[they do not even have a cure for baldness]
The purpose of Jesus healing was to show us on a small scale what he will do on a LARGE or a GRAND scale during his 1000-year reign over earth.

So now 'faith works', so to speak, are 'spiritual works' such as Matthew 24v14; 28vs19,20.
[Compare the works of the flesh [physical] with the faith or spiritual at Gal 5vs19-23].
So although we are to do good Samaritan works of widening out in our love for others,
Jesus gave us the same commission that he had [Luke 4v43] to preach or teach or be teaching the good news of God's kingdom as the solution to our problems.

Please notice the time frame for physical healing to begin at Matthew [25vs31,32].
When Jesus involves himself into mankind's affairs he has the sheep-like people receiving everlasting life. In other words, those 'sheep' do not have to die to continue to live right into the start of Jesus millennial reign when even death will be no more.
-Rev 21vs4,5.
They will be here to welcome back people from death's sleep such as the prophet Daniel who looked forward to resurrection morning, or Jesus millennial-long day of reigning over earth, when the sleeping dead will be awakened from death's deep sleep.
Daniel 12 vs2,13; John 11vs11-14; Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Ecc 9v5,10.

That will mean there will be tears of joy for mothers and babies being reunited with having healthy sound bodies and minds along with the prospect of never having to ever die again.

So what the clergy often teach is out of harmony with Scripture, and that is the nonsense.
As the atheist said to me how corrupt the clergy are.
I said to him wasn't that true in Jesus day?
So, should it surprise us if the clergy are corrupt today?
Corrupt clergy teachings do not make Scripture wrong it makes them wrong.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
If Adam had obeyed God he would have never died.
Romans [5vs12,19] shows because of Adam, our family head, sin came into the world.
With sin comes sickness and death due to inherited imperfection from Adam.
Also, by Adam listening to Satan, then Adam was choosing Satan to be god over him.
2nd Cor 4v4 calls Satan the 'god' of this world of badness, not our Creator.
Our Creator did not interfere with Adam's free will choice rejecting him.
Time does allow us to be born and choose who to worship.

Now is the time for 'spiritual' healing.

i'm sorry, you seem like a very nice person, but i think this is absolute horse pucky...

People that think today's 'faith healing' are from Scripture are wrong.
Who Jesus healed was 100% cured.
So-called faith healers or healings do not 'cure' all they contact.
[they do not even have a cure for baldness]

so the second chapter of james is a lie?


The purpose of Jesus healing was to show us on a small scale what he will do on a LARGE or a GRAND scale during his 1000-year reign over earth.

tell me, if these scriptures are proof enough for you to understands gods intention...what is the purpose of faith then?

here's a paraphrased excerpt of a live blog of the hitchens/dembski debate

Hitchens: "The sheer number of accounts of Jesus' life makes it likely that some such figure existed, though we can't discern his attributes. It does not prove or even suggest that his birth was divine, that his father was God, or that his mother was a virgin. Suppose that they are true. I did not ask for Jesus' torture and human sacrifice, and were I there, I'd have done whatever I could to prevent it. It's not bad for a person to take the punishment for your debts. But it's ridiculous to suggest that they can take away your culpability. It's scapegoating. It's an old, primitive practice from the middle east that doesn't deserve the consideration of modern people. This sacrifice is not being offered - you refuse on pain of death. Is that a threat? 'Well, that means an eternity of torture, you know. You better take that into account.' This is North Korea. This is a celestial dictatorship. This is the sort of worship that it takes a slave to accept."

heres a link to it if your interested

[youtube]iCSxf1JgeQk[/youtube]
YouTube - Hitchens-Dembski Debate Nov 2010 (1 of 10)
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend Paul,

Personally have no knowledge of such a scenario as because am always a part of the *whole* and the part only transforms to something to enable the balance of the whole to remain.
To speak anything without the explicit experience will only be a mere speculation of which would like to be no part off.

Love & rgds
 

rukhshanda

New Member
bismillah,exactly death is a law.it is the end of exam we were taking.now do u think that all this creation of earth n skies were useless,or people doing wrong n those doing right will get no reward.how will those whu had suffered badly will get justice.those who have have spread violence all over the world will meet no punishment,i cant believe this.the God who has created so balanced universe must have laws .and all his creations are answerable to him.therefore it is necessary that day of judjement be held ,heaven and hell be filled,grading of exams will b in front of all, only then people will understand how misguided they were in their beliefs.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend rukhshanda,

Sorry for asking; do you have any experience??
As because it is said is some book, you believe it??
Surely one is free to his own doings which many believe maybe one's undoing too.

Love & rgds
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
tell me, if these scriptures are proof enough for you to understands gods intention...what is the purpose of faith then?
here's a paraphrased excerpt of a live blog of the hitchens/dembski debate
Hitchens: "The sheer number of accounts of Jesus' life makes it likely that some such figure existed, though we can't discern his attributes. It does not prove or even suggest that his birth was divine, that his father was God, or that his mother was a virgin. Suppose that they are true. I did not ask for Jesus' torture and human sacrifice, and were I there, I'd have done whatever I could to prevent it. It's not bad for a person to take the punishment for your debts. But it's ridiculous to suggest that they can take away your culpability. It's scapegoating. It's an old, primitive practice from the middle east that doesn't deserve the consideration of modern people. This sacrifice is not being offered - you refuse on pain of death. Is that a threat? 'Well, that means an eternity of torture, you know. You better take that into account.' This is North Korea. This is a celestial dictatorship. This is the sort of worship that it takes a slave to accept."

Bible faith is not credulity [blind faith] in the sense that it uses the same logic and reasoning as Jesus did by reasoning on Scripture to draw his answers or conclusions on matters. So the purpose of faith or trust and confidence in Scripture for me is that I can find nothing wrong with Jesus teachings.
I have never been let down by Scripture. However, I have been let down by clergy. I have found that for the most part the clergy, by putting words in Jesus mouth that never came out of Jesus mouth, shows the clergy actually believe Jesus was wrong in what he taught so they teach the flock what they think the flock wants to hear. Tickle ears so to speak. -2nd Tim 4v3.
The clergy often teach not Christ's agenda but their own, often political.

Jesus demonstrated faith, trust, confidence in doing not his will,
but in doing his Father's will. If we could stop sinning we would not die.
Because of our imperfection we can not stop sinning so we die.
We can not resurrect oneself or another so we need someone that can do that for us. Jesus being humanly perfect as Adam was at creation could balance the scales of justice for us. Equal compensation. Thus Jesus was a corresponding ransom for us. Jesus, in a sense, bought back for us what Adam lost for us: the right to gain everlasting life in human perfection.

The clergy teach either an eternity of heavenly bliss or an eternity of torture.
That idea of eternal torture is of pagan origin and not Scriptural.
The clergy have fused pagan ideas and concepts with Scripture perhaps to use scare tactics to control the flock.

Hell is not even a permanent place according to Rev 20vs13,14.
The Bible hell is the stone-cold common grave of mankind.
That is the hell Jesus was buried in until God resurrected him. Acts 2vs27,31
The Bible hell just has sleep as Jesus described at John 11vs11-14.
Jesus would have learned that from the old Hebrew Scriptures such as:
Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Ecclesiastes 9vs5,10; Daniel 12v2,13.

According to Scripture [Heb 2v14 B] even Satan is not permanent because Jesus destroys Satan. The Bible hellfire is Gehenna which was a garbage dump of destruction and not eternally keeping something burning.
So 'Gehenna' is a fitting symbol of destruction for wickedness.

For those referred to as Jesus 'brothers' [Matt 25v40; 1st Cor 15v50] there is a heavenly resurrection held out, but for the majority of mankind the Bible holds out an earthly resurrection of having everlasting life in human perfection right here on a paradisaic earth starting with Jesus millennial reign over earth.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
I have never been let down by Scripture...Jesus demonstrated faith, trust, confidence in doing not his will, but in doing his Father's will.

matthew 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well

james 2"14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

then these people that show their faith by their deed of having hands placed on their child in the name of jesus (that's his name right?) of healing their infliction lived as though they were healed (faith by it self, if it is not accomplished by action, is dead james 2:17) horse pucky...
you know why?
because believers stand in judgment and say they were wrong for doing what the bible told them to do in the first place...

If we could stop sinning we would not die.
Because of our imperfection we can not stop sinning so we die.
We can not resurrect oneself or another so we need someone that can do that for us. Jesus being humanly perfect as Adam was at creation could balance the scales of justice for us. Equal compensation. Thus Jesus was a corresponding ransom for us. Jesus, in a sense, bought back for us what Adam lost for us: the right to gain everlasting life in human perfection.

The clergy teach either an eternity of heavenly bliss or an eternity of torture.
That idea of eternal torture is of pagan origin and not Scriptural.
The clergy have fused pagan ideas and concepts with Scripture perhaps to use scare tactics to control the flock.

Hell is not even a permanent place according to Rev 20vs13,14.
The Bible hell is the stone-cold common grave of mankind.
That is the hell Jesus was buried in until God resurrected him. Acts 2vs27,31
The Bible hell just has sleep as Jesus described at John 11vs11-14.
Jesus would have learned that from the old Hebrew Scriptures such as:
Psalm 6v5; 13v3; 115v17; 146v4; Ecclesiastes 9vs5,10; Daniel 12v2,13.

According to Scripture [Heb 2v14 B] even Satan is not permanent because Jesus destroys Satan. The Bible hellfire is Gehenna which was a garbage dump of destruction and not eternally keeping something burning.
So 'Gehenna' is a fitting symbol of destruction for wickedness.

For those referred to as Jesus 'brothers' [Matt 25v40; 1st Cor 15v50] there is a heavenly resurrection held out, but for the majority of mankind the Bible holds out an earthly resurrection of having everlasting life in human perfection right here on a paradisaic earth starting with Jesus millennial reign over earth.

sin is missing the mark
if thinking for myself is missing the mark, what's the point of having a mark to aim for?
 

outhouse

Atheistically
Does you religion or your own personal beliefs include details about the post death experience?

I will share

I drowned twice and survived before i was 5.

when i drowned at 5 years of age i was in a pool and my dad was involved in a accident and my mom and the teacher ran for the phone call and told me not to get near the pool.

just my feet mom. LOL

ok som im in the pool in the shallow end holding onto the curved edge and using my hands i walked out to the deep end and lost my grip.

I remember looking down and seeing the drain at the bottom and i looked over and say the tile work and the rail where the steps are, i even noticed the light inthe pool and the stainless steel ring they had for trim around the light. it looked allot like a headlight. I remember looking up and noticed the top of the water shimmering with the lights waves from the breeze and thought how beautiful everything was. Everything was crystal clear as if i had a mask on.

about the time i noticed the waves and felt a rushing sensation and pain coming back and in that split second i woke up ouside the pool choking on water after they had yanked me out.

I remember sticking my head back in the pool after whining for a few minutes [i didnt want to get near the pool] but when i looked under water i thought i would se thinsg clear again and my eyes burned a little and everything was blurry.

I remember that dream state to this day almost as it happened yesterday.


was it a dream? astrayal projection?

I have no idea.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Yo, Icebuddy! I did not write that toward you, lol! I agree with all your posts. I just think some of these guys need to take a class in interpretation. I'm sure it will be of no avail, but here is the Golden Rule for Interpretation and link if anyone wants to really understand what the Bible says:
Do You Interpret the Bible Literally?
When the plain sense of Scripture​
makes common sense,
seek no other sense;
Therefore, take every word
at its primary, ordinary,
usual, literal meaning
Unless the facts
of the immediate context,
studied in the light
Of related passages and
axiomatic and fundamental truths
indicate clearly otherwise.​

That I think is an excellent rule.

The problem, however, is that each man's common sense is like a roaming cloud or like bubbles over boiling water that burst. And 'common sense' in general for all? I doubt if there is any? Why should man kill man and why should muslims kill muslims? Why should people try to see historicity in revelations? Why should people hoard, even knowing that death is certain? Whatever way one follows, literal or spiritual, the understanding will be as per one's values and desires. Beneath these values and desires .......... This is my understanding. he he:)
 
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atanu

Member
Premium Member
Understand that I am not interested if you agree or disagree. That isn't the point of this discussion. The point of this discussion is to compare ideas of what happens after physical death.


Any thoughts?

Dear YmirGF

Fortunately you defined 'compare ideas'.

Om
 

chinu

chinu
The point of this discussion is to compare ideas of what happens after physical death.Any thoughts?

Why thoughts!!!!!!!!,
I am planning to commit a sucide in coming few days,
I'll definatly post you a answer afterwards.:candle:
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend chinu,

Sorry, there is nothing as death so it is not possible for you to plan any death of anyone including your *self*.
The self is not *chinu* or whatever the name / label may be used by others to address IT.

Love & rgds
 

chinu

chinu
Friend chinu,

Sorry, there is nothing as death so it is not possible for you to plan any death of anyone including your *self*.
The self is not *chinu* or whatever the name / label may be used by others to address IT.

Love & rgds

Zenzero ji, I am talking about the death of BODY.

I hope that you will come to present flowers on my dead body, ha ha ha ha ha........

Anyhow, "Namaste" by Chinu.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friend chinu,

The body too does not die.
It stops functioning when existence does not require it any longer and though it may appear that one is the cause of it and that one is a part of IT in other words its all one which keep changing forms and appear in different forms.
So in effect there is no *YOU* or *ME* to do anything.

Love & rgds
 

chinu

chinu
Friend chinu,

The body too does not die.
It stops functioning when existence does not require it any longer and though it may appear that one is the cause of it and that one is a part of IT in other words its all one which keep changing forms and appear in different forms.
So in effect there is no *YOU* or *ME* to do anything.

Love & rgds

Zenzero ji, In the true sence you are living & enjoying your life, But ! I am passing my life,
I know what is death, Because, few years back i was too much sick & i am having the nearby death experience, I cannot forget that time,

Anyways, Zenzero ji, I respect you too much,
Your brother Jasdir.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Brother Jasdir, [chinu]

You are repeatedly bringing out the difference within the unity with the words *you* and *me*.
No we are all parts of One and what you describe is the mind's doing by making stories about your having near death experiences and so on. The mind does all this so that you do not become *CONSCIOUS* and allow the CONSCIOUSNESS to to witness that there is no death. Death is only a feeling when one is *UNCONSCIOUS* and so kindly wake up brother and remain awake to witness death to understand that there is nothing as death.

Love & rgds
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
matthew 16:15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well
james 2"14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.”Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
then these people that show their faith by their deed of having hands placed on their child in the name of jesus (that's his name right?) of healing their infliction lived as though they were healed (faith by it self, if it is not accomplished by action, is dead james 2:17) horse pucky...
you know why?
because believers stand in judgment and say they were wrong for doing what the bible told them to do in the first place...
sin is missing the mark
if thinking for myself is missing the mark, what's the point of having a mark to aim for?

Please keep in mind that the gospel of 'Mark' ends at verse 8.
So verses 9-20 were added on in KJV
The style of writing changes after verse 8, and there are no corresponding or reference Scriptures as there is with the rest of Mark's writings.

Jerome and Eusebius agree Mark ends at verse 8

Those last verses are Not in the Sinaitic Manuscript, the Vatican 1209 or the Sinaitic Syriac codex or Armenian Version.

The deeds mentioned at James are spiritual deeds which could include neighborly Samaritan deeds as Jesus mentioned in his illustration of the good Samaritan showing we should all widen out in our love for others besides teach or be teaching others about the good news of God's kingdom.
Matt 24v14;28vs19,20. Isn't that being done today?

Couldn't the point of having a mark to aim for be for hitting the target to be one of the sheep-like ones of Matthew25vs31,32?
 

crimsonlung

Active Member
I used to think that as well. Given that we are all endowed with exactly the same psychological and biological aptitude, there are only two possible perspectives that accommodate the diversity of human opinion on life after death: 1) They are all correct. 2) They are all incorrect. The popular proposal that one of these beliefs is correct and all others are false is absolutely ludicrous, IMO. A child's fantasy.

I could go either way now but the truth of the matter is I don't know (and neither does anybody else). I've got the dilemma that if I go with 1, the implication is that subjective preconceptions of death determine afterlife experience. What does that mean for a person who "just doesn't know"? Am I supposed to just pick something arbitrarily? And if I do that, am I not risking a downward spiral into the mentality that my arbitrarily chosen afterlife belief is "true" and all others are "false"?

It's quite a conundrum. This is what led me to lean toward option 2: all beliefs are incorrect. Trying to work out the details of who goes where in an afterlife that is determined by our subjective preconceptions became too absurd for me to maintain the opinion that what we believe death is has anything at all to do with what death is.

I completely agree with this statement, without physical proof, we can't provide a good answer.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Friend chinu,

The body too does not die.
It stops functioning when existence does not require it any longer and though it may appear that one is the cause of it and that one is a part of IT in other words its all one which keep changing forms and appear in different forms.
So in effect there is no *YOU* or *ME* to do anything.

Love & rgds

Dear friend

Yes, the body is inert and cannot die. But in all cases of embodied existence (such as you and me), the single purusha has become a sacrificial lamb.

The 11 organs, which consitute the most important aspects of this sacrifice are the mind, the 5 senses of knowledge and the 5 senses of action. These are now powerful deities in their own right and each demand food. When the life force leaves the body all these 11 agents demand their due and that process is painful -- such as a drowning man knows. When breath starts leaving the body, it is awfully fearful.

This is the ultimate fear of this revolving samsara.

All the above is indeed the mind yet for the embodied it is as true as an apple on the palm.

Jasdir is also, IMO, not wrong. However .....

Mandukya Karika: IV-10. All the souls are free from decay and death by nature. But by thinking of decay and death, and becoming absorbed in that thought, they deviate (from that nature).

Regards

Om
 
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