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The Perfect Plan

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Lightkeeper, Mar 6, 2005.

  1. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    There are times on this forum people have argued about homosexuality and gay marriage, saying God had a perfect plan. And that perfect plan was for male and female only for mating, marrying and procreating.

    I answer that by saying that, yes, God did have a perfect plan. God created homosexuality in several animals of the animal kingdom. It seems it would be important to discover the reason for that rather than condemning those who are homosexual. If we spent as much time researching the reason for this as we do scouring the Bible to condemn the gays and deny them rights, we would have a much happier world.

    Saying homosexuals are not part of "God's perfect plan" would be second guessing God. It is also saying God makes mistakes. Does God make mistakes?
     
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  2. standing_on_one_foot

    standing_on_one_foot Well-Known Member

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    I tend to mistrust anyone who's decided they know G-d's plan, especially when it more involves others' behaviors than their own...I suppose you could argue either way, but it's rather shaky ground to make an arguement on, seeing as you're building it on what is, rather by default, supposed to be unknowable.

    If we go too far into this perfect plan thing we run up against something like Candide...and doesn't G-d appear to admit that He made a mistake in the flood story?
     
  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    No God does not make mistakes; we humans do; we are weak. I'll never criticise a homosexual, but like you, LK, I would like to know what it is that makes some of us fall in love with the same sex.:)
     
  4. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    I used to think that homosexuality was against the tao because it wasn't balanced (Yin Yang). However, I have since discovered that love is the greatest balance of all. Love transcends all opposites, and if two of the same gender love each other, it completely voids the gender issue. Gender and the physical have no meaning anymore. There are ways for homosexual couples to have kids, and further the species in wonderful ways. It's no longer about mating anymore. It's about love. I find now, that true love, is the ultimate human balance. And since balance is the closest humans get to the Tao, or god. Than I do believe, taos plan is love. Like I always say.

    Love transcends all things physical.
    Marriage is love,
    Gender is physical.
    Therefore, marriage transcends gender.
     
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  5. precept

    precept Member

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    God's
     
  6. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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  7. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Master Vigil;

    Strangely enough I was like you used to be, and like you, have changed my mind.
    Love is such a powerful 'good' energy; it promotes growth. The world is lacking in understanding about so many things. I am happy that I can look upon homosexuality without prejudice as just another aspect of 'love'.:)
     
  8. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    I used to think the same thing. I learned that we can have a balance of the opposites within us and that actually is the goal. It doesn't matter who we love.
     
  9. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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  10. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Inane platitude.
    No, marriage is marriage. The overwhelming majority of mariages over the overwhelming history of marriage were arranged.
    And psychological, and ...
    Therefore, nonsense non sequitur.
     
  11. Master Vigil

    Master Vigil Well-Known Member

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    I knew you'd be the one to tear my argument apart. I wondered why you never did it before. Either way, I still don't have any problem with homosexuality. If they love each other, then who am I to say they can't.
     
  12. precept

    precept Member

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    "Sin" is any act of disobeying Any "command" of God; whether such "command" is demanded, implied or inferred from godly inference. "Sin is the transgression of God's law" 1 John 3:4

    The bible's rendering of the above: "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good , and doeth it not, to him it is sin." James 4:17

    Also "sin" is doing anything to your neighbor that you would not want your neighbor to do to you...And also "sin" is knowing the desires of God for you to worship Him; but your refusing to worship Him AS HE DESIRES!

    Matthew 22:37-40.....Sums up all the above: "Jesus said unto hiom, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

    "sin" is committed if the command to "love you brother as much as you love yourself" is ignored while still claiming to "love and serve God".
    1 John 4:20-21...."If any man say , I love god, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? AND THIS COMMANDMENT HAVE WE FROM HIM, THAT HE WHO LOVETH GOD LOVETH HIS BROTHER ALSO".

    When our first parents sinned "sinned" as in disobeying God; sin was introduced. They were the first earthly example of humans who preferred to believe the originator of sin, Satan, rather than believe God their Creator.

    All of nature; Animal life and plant life have suffered ever since. As Paul puts it: "For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now". Romans 8:22

    It is because this earth is cursed and in sin that God in 2 Peter 3:13 will will create a new heaven and a new earth".[U/] It was this new heaven and new earth that the disciple John saw in vision in Revelation 21:1......."AND I SAW A NEW HEAVEN AND A NEW EARTH : FOR THE FIRST HAEVEN AND THE FIRST EARTH WERE PASSED AWAY ......"


    precept
     
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  13. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    Far better, in my opinion, had it been you.
    I totally agree.
     
  14. Draka

    Draka Wonder Woman

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    Precept. So you're saying that things like cancer and diabetes are due to sin? That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard of. Also, why punish somebody for supposedly committing a "sin" when they are born a certain way and are living their lives as naturally as they can. And if you believe that you are born the way god wanted you to be then that would mean god made gays. If god doesn't make mistakes and people do how do you explain that one?
     
  15. precept

    precept Member

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    The answer to your question is found in : Isaiah 61: and in Luke 4:18....Jesus was sent to "heal" the brokenhearted; or to portray "goodness" and life in contrast to destruction and death has caused by sin.

    The healing of diseases as shown by Jesus in his healing of those who were sick, blind or dead, is but an example of the goodness of God in extending to us "sinning humans" His hand of mercy despite us "sinning humans" meriting the diseases that sin has introduced. As the bible puts it : It is because of the mercies of God thst we are not consumed; because His compassions fail not. They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness". Lamentations 3:22-23
    God gives us the wisdom to also cure diseases...in Jesus' words..." They that are whole have no need of a physcian; but thay that are sick".Matthew 9:12
    The prophet Daniel prophesied that in the last days knowlledge would be increased.Daniel 12:4

    The ability of humans to research and cure diseases is not any different from the healing abilities of God who came to earth and healed diseases with a touch of His hand. As previously stated God does not punish us his "sinning humans" as we deserve, because hE WISHES above all else that we prosper and BE IN HEALTH.....".[/B] 3 John 2. And so He has passed on to humans the chemistry behind the reason for diseases, making humans able to do with medicine what He did, miraculously.


    precept
     
  16. cardero

    cardero Citizen Mod

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    Sure I have! In MY formative years, before anyone was around to laugh at ME. I had to learn just like YOU. And, just like YOU, I had to learn the hard way. Eventually, the road got easier; through trial and error I found out what worked and what didn't.
    -GOD
     
  17. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    There was a reference to homosexuality and animals... I know of no such prediliction by any animal other than those who depend on man for their sustenance.

    Either I am ignorant (won't be the first time), this is a fairly new observation or it's an urban myth of sorts. Can anyone show me where there are any references to free animals showing signs of homosexuality? I would love to see this.
     
  18. Jayhawker Soule

    Jayhawker Soule <yawn> ignore </yawn>
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    First of all, I appreciate the openess. See Biological Exuberance. Also ...

    Homosexual mounting in free-ranging female Hanuman langurs (Presbytis entellus).
    A comparison of LH secretion and brain estradiol receptors in heterosexual and homosexual rams and female sheep.
    Female homosexual behavior in Macaca mulatta.
     
  19. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    The middle group does not seem to be free ranging, and so not indicative of normal and natural behaviours. Are they any observance of these phenomenon among free-ranging males?

    PS, I will try and read that book you suggested.
     
  20. Lightkeeper

    Lightkeeper Well-Known Member

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    First you say homosexuality is a sin and humans and plants are condemned with disease by God for sin. Then you say God has mercy and can heal and has allowed us to heal. Which is it? Are we condemned or do we have God's mercy? We know homosexuality is not a disease. You haven't proven that God didn't create homosexuals and it isn't part of His perfect plan.
     
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