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Featured The papalization of the Church

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by pearl, Aug 4, 2022.

  1. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Certainly not a positive history, which I find both embarrassing and pitiful. Hopefully, those days will not make a comeback with future popes, that Francis has stacked the deck with numbers enough to prevent it from rising up once again.

    The church in the West became the papal church, and Catholics became papists. The development signified a more exclusively top-down and hierarchical mode of church, in contrast to the more synodal and collegial earlier mode. It went unchallenged until recent times, most notably by the Second Vatican Council and Pope Francis.

    Nonetheless, some of the most important and symptomatic steps in the process were the results of direct actions taken by the popes themselves. The popes were in fact the single most important agents in the papalization process. I describe their actions as self-conferred upgrades. Three such papal actions in that regard are the most obvious and the most symptomatic of the great change underway: the claim to have the power to depose secular rulers, the claim to be vicar of Christ and the claim to possess infallible teaching authority.

    The move from vicar of Peter to vicar of Christ was not simply new window dressing for the papal office, but a major enhancement of its dignity. It seemed to imbue the papacy almost with divinity. Pope Innocent conferred this upgrade upon himself and, as an almost inevitable consequence, upon his successors for the centuries to come.

    How did such a profound revolution in consciousness and practice come about? How did an institution move from the outskirts of awareness, at best, to the defining center? How did Mt. 16:16—"Thou art Peter"—become the canon within the canon for Roman Catholics and become emblematic of their very identity?

    (Popes of an earlier time)
    for the most part they behaved as essentially local figures, intent on local issues.

    The Gregorians set a powerful ideological machine in motion. While even for them the pope was still only "the vicar of Peter," a little over a century later Pope Innocent III designated himself "the vicar of Christ." The title stuck, and is today much better known than the more venerable "servant of the servants of God." As the monarchies of England and France emerged from an amorphous feudalism, the papacy developed a similarly monarchical structure and self-definition. During their residency in Avignon in the 14th century, the popes even led the way in the creation of effective bureaucracy.
    The Millennium and the Papalization of Catholicism | America Magazine

    The difference between judge and teacher had radical implications. By the early years of the 20th century, the offices of the Roman Curia began issuing instructions at a newly regular pace. Moreover, popes themselves began issuing encyclicals and similar documents with much greater frequency than before and attributing to them ever greater authority. Theologians in turn began more explicitly and frequently basing their arguments on papal documents rather than on a wider range of authoritative sources.

    Francis has meanwhile changed the curia’s style from authoritarian to collegial. Curial officials now ask bishops how they can help them rather than telling them what to do. The change implicitly empowers the periphery. In his recent and remarkable apostolic constitution on the reform of the curia, “Praedicate Evangelium” (“Preach the Gospel”), Francis gives institutional form to this and similar changes—signs he seeks to reverse the papalization trajectory of recent history.
    How popes became so powerful—and how Pope Francis could reverse the trend | America Magazine
     
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  2. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Well-Known Member

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    pearl Good to meet you...
    I must point out...
    The One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church Jesus established before he ascended; is a Living Organism! The Church has grown in her understanding; She is constantly being directed by the Holy Spirit (God)
    Thus we have various doctrines and Dogmas that came into place as she grew!

    Jesus handed Peter the Keys to Heaven He made Peter the "Chief Shephard of God' Flock!"
    pearl The Church is established on ROCK not on sand to think different is to call Jesus a fool!
    Matthew 7:26
    But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.

    The ONLY Church Jesus established is built on ROCK it cannot fail! All Protestants (Protestors) want to "Re-FORM" the church, all believe Jesus failed, all believe the CHURCH Failed!
    The Protestant (all Protestors) think they have to come to God' rescue and build what Jesus failed to build!

    The Pope IS the vicker of Christ!
    He speaks for Jesus until Jesus returns!
    In the Old Testament the Prophet spoke for God; the Priests were the Hands of God! Today is is much the same except the Pope fills in for the Prophet! IN....

    pearl
    in the days of Jesus the people had a hard time believing "A MAN could be God"!
    Today people have a hard timer believing "Bread and Wine could be God"!
    The God of the Catholic is almighty he can take any form he wants to take... The Protestors today rejects the words of Jesus much the same as the Pharisees and Sadducees did in Jesus' day!
    pearl To be Protestant you MUST reject the scriptures or you would be Catholic!
     
  3. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Which the pope took on for himself.

    They do no reject Scripture, just interpret some differently.
     
  4. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    It is not the Pope that makes us Catholics. It is our faith in Jesus Christ and our renunciation of Satan. Popes, cardinals, archbishops are all irrelevant, unless they are humble servants of Jesus. Only Jesus matters. No collegial authority. Just Jesus' authority.

    I ask the Roman Catholic Church to expose all the Freemasons within the Vatican.
    All of them. Whether they are cardinals, bishops, or priests. It doesn't matter.

    As this author says, the Vatican is being infiltrated.


    If this passage from Papal to collegial takeover is the result of a Freemasonic takeover, then I will be more and more diffident towards the Vatican and will exclusively rely on the holy priests who openly renounce Satan and harshly condemn Freemasonry.
    A man of God cannot be Rosicrucian or Freemason.

    And there's a prayer I was taught since I was very young
    I renounce Satan
    I renounce all his works
    I renounce his seduction
    I renounce his presence within and around me
    I fully belong to Jesus through Mary
     
    #4 Estro Felino, Aug 5, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  5. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Well-Known Member

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    .
    "I am with you ALWAYS to the end of the world"!
    pearl Can't ALWAYS be with any man made Protesting Church; Jesus did not start with them!

    You are ROCK and on you I will build my Church!
    Jesus did not build on sand!

    The Prophet in the Old Testament was the VICKER of God!
    Peter and his successors are the Vickers of Jesus! The Vickers represent God!
    .........................................
    The term “vicar” means “a substitute; esp. an under-servant [who substitutes].
    .........................................
    After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to come.
    And he said to them . . . `He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me' (Luke 10:1-2, 16).

    pearl Clearly rejecting the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church Jesus established forever on ROCK is to Reject God!

    2 Corinthians 5:20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God” .

    Gal. 4:14[A]nd though my condition was a trial to you, you did not scorn or despise me, but received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus”.

    Acts 5:1-5 “[Ananias] sold a piece of property, and . . . kept back some of the proceeds, and brought only a part and laid it at the apostles’ feet. But Peter said, `Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back part of the proceeds of the land? . . . You have not lied to men but to God.’ When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and died. And great fear came upon all who heard of it”.
     
  6. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    And growth continues. Christian doctrine should follow the true and legitimate rule of progress, so doctrine may be “consolidated by years, enlarged by time, refined by age.” Francis
     
  7. wellwisher

    wellwisher Well-Known Member

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    We have the Old Testament and the New Testament. However, Christianity has gone through a lot of change over the past 2000 years, which is not in either testament, except as prophesy. This 2000 years span of Christianity has not yet been compiled in a Future Testament. The Old Testament was was written over many generations. The New Testament was compiled with the 20/20 hindsight of 200 years, then it was compiled. The Future Testament would be compiled with the 2000 years of 20/20 hindsight and history and begin where the NT leaves off.

    The Future Testament would be connected to the promise of the Holy Spirit, made by Jesus. It would be about how this living Spirit, evolved the Church of Jesus, after the days written about in the NT. Revelations hints of these changes, but since this was in the future of the NT, the imagery is not yet clear in terms of the details.

    The biggest FT change was when Christianity became the official religion of Rome in about 400 AD. This honor was given because the Christian soldiers of Rome were its best armies, fearless in battle. The constant repressive pressured over 400 years, made these soldiers hard and strong; shell shock became a shield and sword. This new composite of secular and faith began with Rome being the over dog. But it slowly transitioned into the Holy Roman Empire of a secular Christian theocracy. The NT anticipates this by the quote, "the gospel will be preached to all the nations". This would happen in the future, through the new empire. The details of would be parts of the FT.

    The office of the Pope is part of the original composite of Rome and Christianity. He is as much a symbolic descendant of Peter, as he was of Caesar, with that composite leader being led by the Spirit. The amalgam of Rome and Christianity was one of extreme opposites, becoming united; power versus weakness, wealth versus poverty, faith versus knowledge, secular versus spiritual, war versus peace, etc. Within that tension of opposites, the spirit of change was very active. It was a 1000 year kingdom of peace for Christianity, from its over dog position.

    This composite and amalgam lasted about 1000 years, from about 400AD to about 1400AD. At that end time, the amalgam started to become unglued, beginning with the Alchemist and Protestant movements; science and religious changes.

    The Spirit ultimately divides the Amalgam Church, back into the original spirits of Rome and the spirits of early Christianity, with all the proportions of each other in smaller groups. Nazi Germany was nearly pure Roma versus the nearly pure Christianity in the small local private bible churches subject to religious persecution by the Atheists and other Christians Churches. They represented the bandwidth of the original Rome-Christian amalgam.

    We could use a Future Testament, compiled to show the 2000 years of history, after the NT, hat changed the world. The metamorphosis now appears to be leading to another change. Today, the spirit of Rome again persecutes the Christians; Christian spawned Atheism versus NT Christianity. The FT is needed to avoid repeating the mistakes of the past. We should not ignore the 2000 year block of the past. Today, Atheism starts its attack at at the worse days of Christianity; NT, persecution by the state in the backdrop of the perversion of the declining Rome. This all changes in the FT for both Rome and Christianity in about 400AD. Both become revitalized as a team.
     
    #7 wellwisher, Aug 6, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2022
  8. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    It depends on what Bergoglio means by that. It sounds like ambiguous to me.
    If Bergoglio is a Rosicrucian or a Freemason, he ought to say it.
    If he does not, it means he is aware it is not something to be proud of, when you are sitting on the throne of Peter.
     
  9. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Well-Known Member

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    Estro Felino I point out... For Example: The Canon of scripture was not made Dogma until it was questioned by the De-Formers! The Dogmas are made as questions arise and then understood!

    consolidated by years, enlarged by time, refined by age.”
    His statement is NOT ambiguous it is logical!

    A child is not born into the world knowing everything there is to know! The Child grows in understanding it's the same with the "Bride of Christ"!
     
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  10. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    I think Francis is opposing the form of Catholic 'traditionalism', which in actuality is little different from Protestant fundamentalism. Growth, progress stagnates. Almost every word of Francis is a validation of Vatican II, not admitted by many traditionalists to be valid, a kind of heresy.
     
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  11. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    Thank you. May I have an answer on the compatibility between Freemasonry and Papacy, as well?
     
  12. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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  13. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    But since there is overwhelming evidence of Cardinal-Freemasons, is the Vatican still a holy place?
    With Cardinals breaking the Vatican law?
     
  14. lostwanderingsoul

    lostwanderingsoul Well-Known Member

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    God said He never changes so it seems his doctrines should not change.
     
  15. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    But I think they must be understood by each generation anew.
     
  16. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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  17. Dogknox20

    Dogknox20 Well-Known Member

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    Freemasonry is rejected by the Catholic because it is a separate religion over the Christian religion!
    Can't be a member of two different beliefs... There is ONLY one truth!

    Estro Felino Your YouTube Freemasonic Infiltration of the Vatican
    Should be taken with a grain of salt... The Man is anti-Catholic! Can't believe evenything you see on the net!

    There are a lot of Anti-Catholic sites dressed up in sheep clothing!
     
    #17 Dogknox20, Aug 7, 2022
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2022
  18. pearl

    pearl Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there are, there are also anti Vatican II sites that refuse to accept the authority of the Council.
     
  19. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    I have never heard a single Cardinal or Pope saying "there are no Rosicrucians or Freemasons within the Vatican walls".

    When some of them says it, I can feel reassured.
    Not before that.
     
  20. Estro Felino

    Estro Felino Believer in free will
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    If Vatican II legitimized Freemasonry, then yes, I refuse to accept it.
     
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