dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Yes I have. You haven't seen it yet.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
The Original Sin: who is to blame?
- Thread starter 9-18-1
- Start date
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
OK.... time to prove your academic integrity...
How many Muslims marry underage girls?
How many Muslims world wide?
Do you have any facts on this?
Answer: You have no facts... just beliefs. You can do the research and see what it says... I don't know if there is any research on this that gives a full count.
But the bottom line is, this thread is based on belief.
How does this defeat your argument about belief?
Example:
Many Muslims learn about the Hadith regarding Muhammad and Aisha and they don't believe it. Why? Because the Qur'an forbids marriage to a young girl.
The Muslims belief in the Qur'an is a virtue because it supports their own in-born human aversion towards physical relations, corrupting, and taking advantage of a young girl.
their belief is a virtue.
If you believe that there are many Muslims out there who are abusing young girls and that belief encourages you to advocate for an end to older men marrying younger girls, then:
your belief is a virtue.
belief is a virtue in so many ways. I pointed it out the first time you made a thread on this subject. And others did too.
Last edited:
sooda
Veteran Member
Historically, Muslims didn't marry until a girl reached puberty because pregnancy was dangerous for a girl not fully grown.
They were pretty savvy about their world.. They put an apricot pit in the womb of a she camel to prevent her from going into estrus during a caravan trek.
9-18-1
Active Member
Yes - quite true. I'll temporarily retract only to modify and re-submit:
The precedent of state-sanctioned military persecution of Jews (still active) was (is) established in Muhammad's sunnah / Qur'an.
What is interesting, however, is Jesus was essentially a state-sanctioned response to the nonsense in Judaism. It is essentially a non-military stance against the latent hypocrisy of Jews (reflecting the general disposition of the time) of those who opposed their hold on power. This sentiment indeed pervaded the pre-Islamic era.
However, Islam institutionalizes military Jew persecution: it is commonly invoked in everyday mosques that in the times of the end the Muslims will kill every last Jew on the planet. This disposition is reflected both in the Qur'an (as reflect by Muhammad's genocide at Khaybar) and in the hadith: sunnah of Muhammad.
It is also interesting that Dr. Carl Jung, when asked to draw a comparison for the sensationalist rise of Hitler, he chose Muhammad. Same anti-Jew sentiment, same spontaneous whipping-up-a-fervor of cult-like followers absolutely polarized towards (in the case of Jews, against) a single goal. This goal happens to be the same as Islam: genocide against all Jews. Same format: male central figure with Absolute power over the State giving oral "performances" which resulted in... the rest is history.
We are dealing with an archetype here: people like Justin Trudeau (whom I consider a Muhammad lite political warlord) descend into this same archetype: project ones own deficiencies outward and condemn his enemies for what he is himself guilty of.
This is the principle pathology of the warring madman: projecting himself into his own enemies - the "unbelievers" who rejected his obviously false self-appointment of the return of the Messiah.
The Jews really have a big opportunity to prevent WW3... if they just called their own book into scrutiny, it would demand that Islam do the same for its own Qur'an. If the Qur'an refers to the Torah as a book "delivered", but in fact it is man-made (as is true), the Qur'an is also man-made (as is also true).
The real barrier here is the stubborn Jew unwilling to call Torah into scrutiny... and here is the thing.
The Jew could easily prove that both the Christian and Islamic testimonies of faith are false testimonies contrary to the ten commandments (which, if Christians/Muslims deny as Law, they are immediately hypocrites anyways).
This is why I hesitate to state affirmatively "there is no god": I am actually hoping there is a god that holds people accountable to the laws they themselves claim to be recognizing as "god"'s law. Christianity and Islam would collapse immediately upon invoking the Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:16
לא תענה ברעך עד שקר
Thou shalt not bear false. witness against thy neighbour
You can not truthfully testify of a dead men. It is absolutely impossible.
Since dybmh is in an emotional meltdown, perhaps I can ask you: does Judaism not recognize Christianity/Islam as *idol worship* given they are based on male-central-figure models/idols which infringe on:
Exodus 20:4
לא תעשה לך פסל וכל תמונה אשר בשמים ממעל ואשר בארץ מתחת ואשר במים מתחת לארץ
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above or that is in the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth
(heavens above taken to be psychology; earth below taken to be emotional; waters below taken to be behavioral).
If someone is testifying of a dead mean, and their "impression" is constructed based on what they are told, hear etc. about them (ie. completely psychological construct of a man)... is this not adopting an idol, and adopting that idol's "pattern of conduct" a graven image (mind = idol, emotion = attachment, imitation = behavior)?
If there were a god of Abraham, Islam is like... f*cked. Completely.
Reconcile with the Edenic fall as per OP: man blames woman for his own iniquity. Is *that* in Islam too?
What are your thoughts re: these things? (I am genuinely interested)
Last edited:
9-18-1
Active Member
I asked the calm-minded one a question who will give a calm-minded answer. I'd rather actually advance the OP and dig at the issue deeper than deal with your emotional tohuwabohu meltdown.
Feel free to continue via PM - we can discuss there. Otherwise please stop with this trying to fry me: I never cared for salt.
sooda
Veteran Member
Taking over an oasis and breaking treaties was haram.. Sadly the Arab Jews of Kaybar asked to be judged by Mosaic law.
Eve is not to blame for the fall in Islam.. in fact, after 130 year separation Adam and Eve are forgiven and reunited.
Last edited:
Bethsheba Ashe
Member
So you want to use non-standard bespoke definitions of words? Fine with me, but can you define your terms before using them or it just looks as if you're bull****ting your way out of a corner.
So do you assume that these heavenly analogues of the Torah and the Qur'an are some type of ghostly duplicates of the physical books as we known them on earth? That's funny.
The belief is that God whirled the heavens and the earth into being with the alphabet, and that every letter stood for a part of the creation. But this is the infallible blueprint to the Torah...[see diagram above]. I can't speak for the Qur'an but Mohammed did travel to the Seventh Palace to see Abraham and Moses etc so its more than likely. It provides a blueprint for the Temple of Solomon too. One thing it doesn't do is settle dogmatic disputes... Its just numerically sublime. That's all.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I am only pointing out the many varied flaws in what you have said.
9-18-1
Active Member
It depends what you mean by non-standard. According to what standard... standard standard?
I understand Israel as containing the twelve archetypes/tribes within itself (once Jacob is successful in wrestling with the angel).
I read Torah as a map: each patriarch is an archetype that must be achieved internally. I chose to become chaste because I realized this is what is meant by Jacob wrestling with an angel - overcoming the passion (sexual energy) and transmuting it into the archetypes (hence all the children).
So, to me, Israel is that. It is contained in chokmah. I understand how this is not "standard" because people are reading this Hebrew mythology *literally* which I think is silly and leads to idol worship.
What heavenly analogues? Both books are man-made.
Judaism holds that the Torah was created at the start of the universe.
Islam holds that the Qur'an is on preserved tablets in heaven.
Belief is not a virtue. I understand the "belief", however. I understand where the error in the belief is as well - how it can be mistaken, as I mistook it and only realized the error much later.
Regarding Muhammad, his night journey into heaven was adapted from a Persian story written over 400 years prior to Muhammad. The story was written to revive a dying empire by implicating one of the students had a vision and saw the heavens. Muhammad forged it from here. The entire Qur'an is forged/adapted/re-worked from other sources, not the least of which are Christian strophic hymns. In fact, the word "Qur'an" means "lectionary": passages which were sang aloud. Syriac-speaking Christians used them who treated Jesus as the "mercy upon mankind" until it was switched out for Muhammad around 685 AD. Prior to this time, no mention of Muhammad is to be found anywhere except one vague reference of a false prophet with a sword in his hand.
The shahada is a false testimony contrary to the ten commandments anyways: Muhammad was a sexually degenerated pedophile. He had epilepsy, too. Not a good combination: real madness.
Great... but before you do, two questions.
Taken as virtues:
i. Understanding in... <object>... in order to learn from it.
ii. Believing in... <object>... in order to learn from it.
Which is superior?
Taken as axioms:
i. Truth above all authority
ii. Authority above all truth
Which is superior?
Bonus question: what do the two fish of Pisces represent?
Fish goes up: "I KNOW..."
Fish goes down: "I BELIEVE..."
What happens when someone "BELIEVES" something THAT IS NOT TRUE?
Bonus bonus question: what does Satan try to make people "BELIEVE"?
That he is god, when he is not.
Bonus bonus bonus question: what is required in order to "BELIEVE" that Satan is god?
"BELIEF".
"BELIEF" is satanic. I'd argue it is the great Satan of Revelation.
It keeps the identity limited and triggers/sets people off in an emotional frenzy to protect/defend.
The basis of being is 'I AM' and nothing more. Even MOSES learned this before he went down to liberate the archetypes (of Israel). You can't eliminate ones own binds until 'I AM' is UNDERSTOOD... not "believed" in... UNDERSTOOD.
UNDERSTAND?
Attachments
Last edited:
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I will think about it.
9-18-1
Active Member
Best possible answer - let there be no enmity.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
@9-18-1:
The diagram, the analysis of the Hebrew is not convincing for me.
If you want to discuss this matter further, I have repeatedly proposed starting a new thread. You have declined.
So I think in order to continue the discussion in a productive way, I am sorry. We need to start over.
What is your claim?
What is your evidence of that claim?
I was tempted to go through your most recent post and pull out what I am reading as claims, and what I am reading as evidence. But I actually think it would be better for you to do this part.
OK?
The diagram, the analysis of the Hebrew is not convincing for me.
If you want to discuss this matter further, I have repeatedly proposed starting a new thread. You have declined.
So I think in order to continue the discussion in a productive way, I am sorry. We need to start over.
What is your claim?
What is your evidence of that claim?
I was tempted to go through your most recent post and pull out what I am reading as claims, and what I am reading as evidence. But I actually think it would be better for you to do this part.
OK?
Bethsheba Ashe
Member
Hmmm. Well I view Jacob and Esau as the personifications of Summer and Winter because of the gematria of the story, and the fact it closely resembles the Mesopotamian 'The Debate between Winter and Summer'. I think the story of Jacob and Esau is about God giving Summer the land to care for.
“Behold, your dwelling place shall be away from the richness of the land, away from the dew of heaven above. 40 You shall live by the sword, and serve your brother. But when you rebel, you will tear his yoke from your neck.” ~ Isaac to Esau, Genesis 27:39-40.
But then, I'm just trying to understand how the ancients saw the world of the ancient near east. I'm not trying to use it as a rational basis for sexual abstinence.
9-18-1
Active Member
How about this: I will make a new thread which challenges the entirety of the Abrahamic "belief" system - in its entirety. Fundamentally the problem is actually not the Abrahamic "belief" system, it is the <OBJECT> of 'BELIEF' itself. Moreover generally:
i. The VIABILITY of a "BELIEF"-based 'STATE' (esp. empire/global order)
ii. The VIABILITY of "FIGURES" as "MODELS" for HUMANITY
iii. The viability of "MONOTHEISM" as a WHOLE
This entire mess started with Akhunatun: not monotheism per se, but top-down state-enforced state-sanctioned monotheism based on:
i. A MAN [AKHUNATUN] who "BELIEVED" he was in DIRECT COMMUNION with GOD [ATUN] (I would argue influenced the "FIGURE" of MOSHE (not a Hebrew name)
ii. The generally ridiculous parallels between the Biblical Moshe (not a Hebrew name) and the *historical* AKHUNATUN
We have to understanding something. Remember understanding?
IF:
The Torah is the product of human compilation (which the highest scholarly authority presents as indisputably true)
THEN:
There is NO POTENT ABRAHAMIC GOD whose potency would have been REQUIRED to DELIVER. If the so-written Hebrew Moshe was actually an Egyptian Akhunatun, who was actually kicked out of Egypt but allowed to take his [ATUN]... monotheism... into the desert... to mix with the Canaanites... which brings us to...
בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ
And here Jews, Christians, and Muslims begin - starting a FULL GLOBAL DISCLOSURE on just precisely what the F*CK has been going on, and what it has lead to.
US vs. THEM
US vs. THEM
US vs. THEM
GOOD vs. EVIL
GOOD vs. EVIL
GOOD vs. EVIL
I promise this: if Judaism, Christianity and Islam UNDERSTOOD that WAR is IGNORANCE and IGNORANCE is WAR, we could all sit down and say:
Hello JEWS
Hello CHRISTIANS
Hello MUSLIMS
MAY PEACE BE UPON US ALL
And f*cking start from Genesis 1:1
Who is capable of this?
I AM
Who else?
9-18-1
Active Member
Very interesting - good luck on your search!
Please note, however, I do not mean sexual abstinence. That is not the same as chastity.
Chastity means you don't reach the orgasm. I equate this to the forbidden fruits. When one gets too attached to that physical sensation (orgasm), the lower organ (reproductive) starts to control the higher organ (brain), whence the allure of sexualization (ie. fruits of the tree are respective reproductive organs) acts like a glaze over the eyes, and people only thinkin terms of sex and/or satiating whatever they have going in their imagination. That is where degeneration/death occurs and... well, the rest is all written lol.
This is why I emphatically argue:
אלהים
Is BEAUTIFUL because:
אל - "towardsness"
ה - womb
ים - "sea/expanse"
From the sexual act to the milky-way river that would have been a nightly spectacle for the ancients before the light pollution: the river in the sky just passing by as a watery flame:
בראשית ברא אלהים את השמים ואת הארץ
By the way these characters derive from one form viewed from 22 different angles.
Credit to MERU foundation www.meru.org et. al.
Stan Tenen is a genius undiscovered by the world.
Do you know what drove this man?
He was at the wailing wall, and called out to whoever or whatever is out there... if there is anything he can do to help resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, to please use him.
Stan - one of the greatest tragedies I fear is humanity doesn't wake up and UNDERSTAND:
He found the answer. It's just sitting there.
It requires all three religions to STOP FIGHTING and call for a GLOBAL ARMISTICE.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
My suggestion is this: start with the claim: War is Ignorance; Ignorance is war. Then isolate your words so that everything you present supports this 1 claim. While at the same time do not start a war of your own with people whom you want to include in your peaceful intentions.
9-18-1
Active Member
OMG... can I quote BILL CLINTON?
...that depends on what your definition of *is*...is.
exec architect.exe
I would have to define this in terms of how it is naturally implied if even not directly proportional. For example simply stating "war is ignorance; ignorance is war" is refutable unless insofar as *is* can also include "an inevitable eventuality results". That is to say, that war is the inevitable eventually of human ignorance, hence *is* when time considerations are removed.
We should probably have a Full Disclosure Event that reveals what has been going on behind the scenes in these... religions. People need to wake up and see why this is important, and what it could mean for the future of humanity.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
...
And this is why I think your writing belongs in the political forum.
No, the state sanctioned persecution is under the Roman Emperors.
Classic antisemitism. Actually in this case to a certain extent there are no angels here.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
That makes no sense at all.
Things are done out of positive motiviations. And not "positive" in the sense of good, but "positive" in the sense of an ideology with "positive claims". In the case of Stalin, that ideology was communism.
Atheism is not an ideology, nore is it a collection of positive claims.
Communist leaders are dictators who demand 110% loyalty of their subjects. Religion is a threat to them. Not because of their atheism, but because theists tend to put their religion before anything else.
When a theist is put with his back against the wall having to choose between his God and the communist dictator - chances are big that they'll choose for their God. That is something that such a dictator can not allow. That's why they oppose theism. Not because of atheism. But because of their political ideology: they want their subjects to worship them - not someone or something else.
That has nothing to do with atheism and everything with an ideology, in this case communism.