The Original Sin: who is to blame?

[sooda]

I've finally read enough of your posts to be able to interpret what you mean by "Spiritual discernment." It definitely appears to be a total lack of knowledge of anything outside of the Bible, along with an ability to translate certain biblical passages so as to mean what you want them to mean, rather than what the authors thought they were writing.

I'm not impressed, to be honest...

Same cult teaches Serpent Seed.

One of the several false doctrines of the Shepherd's Chapel is the teaching that all people had an existence prior to being here on earth in what is called the first earth age. According to Shepherd's Chapel, there are three earth ages:

• First earth age: Beginning of all things up to fall of Satan. This fall caused incredible destruction and waste. We preexisted in the earthly existence in soul bodies. Those preexistent ones who rebelled against Lucifer and sided with God are called the elect. Gen. 1:1.
• Second earth age: After the fall of Satan, God had to remake the world. It consists of Gen.1:2 through Revelation where all the world, except the elect, will accept the antichrist.
• Third earth age: Begins with the establishment of the millennium, proceeds through its end, and extends into eternity. During the millennium, the elect are in spirit bodies, not physical ones.

These "ages" are based, in part, on what is called the Gap Theory. The Gap Theory states that between Gen. 1:1 and 1:2 was a huge gap of time. The theory states that there was a great destruction in verse one and a great rebuilding in verse two. This gap is also claimed to encompass the geologic epochs in which the dinosaurs lived.

The Shepherd's Chapel teaches that we were created in the first earth age, a time before the fall, where we existed in the form of soul bodies. The problem with this is that there is no biblical support for this position. In fact, the Bible contradicts this soul-body idea.

"it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven," (1 Cor. 15:44-47).

continued

Did we exist as souls prior to Adam's creation? | CARM.org

 

[ecco]

Well it's totally evidence that you have no idea how to put things together.

It's not my job to provide evidence for your notions.

But the horse has shown itself to be dead, so I'll stop beating it.

Seeing the dinosaurs bones dates back way before Adam and Eve
some 6.4 millions years ago and at this time Lucifer was there.
But seeing have no understanding or spiritual discernment. How these can be.

Dinosaurs existed millions of years before the first humans evolved. They weren't named Adam & Eve and Lucifer/Satan/Devil is just another figment of man's imagination.

Maybe it's not ment for you to know. give that some thought

I think I'll take science. You can have your fairy tales.

 

[sooda]

It's not my job to provide evidence for your notions.

But the horse has shown itself to be dead, so I'll stop beating it.



Dinosaurs existed millions of years before the first humans evolved. They weren't named Adam & Eve and Lucifer/Satan/Devil is just another figment of man's imagination.



I think I'll take science. You can have your fairy tales.

LOLOL.. Dinosaurs were long time extinct before humans showed up.. I don't understand the need to have a first earth age, do you?

 

[ecco]

Those verses do give support, to the fact that Lucifer was created way before Adam and Eve were created.
It's just you, that has no Spiritual discernment to understand such things.
Maybe it's not ment for you to know.

Integrity would require you to show where in those verses there is support for your notions. You haven't shown anything except an ability to duck and dodge and evade.

But, as I said, the horse is so long dead that its corpse has begun rotting.

 

[ecco]

As you showed...

See posts 402 and 404.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I've finally read enough of your posts to be able to interpret what you mean by "Spiritual discernment." It definitely appears to be a total lack of knowledge of anything outside of the Bible, along with an ability to translate certain biblical passages so as to mean what you want them to mean, rather than what the authors thought they were writing.

I'm not impressed, to be honest...

Nope it's not anything outside of the Bible
It's all within the Bible.

Can we at lease try to be serious about things, otherwise there would be no use to continue on.

So I'm going to try to do the best that I can to help you understand what it means to have Spiritual discernment.Ok

As Christ Jesus said himself, The words that he speaks are spirit.
He that has ears let him hear what the Spirit is saying.
Do you understand what Christ Jesus is saying, meaning.
Those who have the ears to hear what the Spirit of God is saying throughout the Bible

I don't know how much you know of the Bible or of the Bible

Let's take the book of Mark 12:24-27---
----24--"And Jesus answering said unto them, Do you not therefore err, because you know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err"

can you explain what the Spirit of God is saying in these 4 verses above ^^^
Who does the dead represents?
Who's the dead?

The dead are those who have no spiritual awareness of God, like Atheist they are considered the dead, because they do not believe in God, so they are considered spiritually dead to God. As in not knowing God or believe in God.
Therefore Atheists are spiritually dead.
Their not actually dead, like being dead in the grave.
But spiritually dead to God.

You see there are two aspects of the dead
1 being Spiritual dead
2 being dead in the grave

Here again Christ Jesus speaking, saying in the book of Matthew 8:22--"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead:
bury their dead"

We know that the dead can not bury the dead
So what exactly is Jesus saying here.
If you take Atheists being spiritually dead to God
Therefore it would be let the Atheists
( dead ) bury their dead.
This doesn't just pertains to Atheists alone, but anyone who doesn't believe in God nor believe in God
What this means is, they have no spiritual awareness of God, Thereby they are spiritually dead to God.

Those that are alive unto God, are the spiritual living to God, they have awareness of God.

In the book of Revelation, here we find
Christ Jesus saying 7 times
"He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit say unto the churches"

But why so much emphasis on saying this
7 times?

Christ Jesus trying catch people to read what the Spirit is saying to the 7 churches
In chapters 2-3.
As there is alot of warnings that is being said in chapters 2-3 to the churches.

So in all of this is spiritual discernment.

So spiritual discernment is to know the difference between those that are dead in the grave and those who have no awareness of God. being spiritually dead to God.
Maybe this can be of some help.
Have you ever heard the term, as in reading between the lines.
That's kinda like doing with spiritual discernment reading what is not there, but reading between the lines.

So we know that's it's impossible for the dead to bury their dead.
But in reading in between the lines, we find the dead represents those who have no awareness of God, they are spiritually dead to God.
I hope this is of some help in understanding what it means in having Spiritual discernment in the Bible/scriptures

 

[sooda]

Nope it's not anything outside of the Bible
It's all within the Bible.

Can we at lease try to be serious about things, otherwise there would be no use to continue on.

So I'm going to try to do the best that I can to help you understand what it means to have Spiritual discernment.Ok

As Christ Jesus said himself, The words that he speaks are spirit.
He that has ears let him hear what the Spirit is saying.
Do you understand what Christ Jesus is saying, meaning.
Those who have the ears to hear what the Spirit of God is saying throughout the Bible

I don't know how much you know of the Bible or of the Bible

Let's take the book of Mark 12:24-27---
----24--"And Jesus answering said unto them, Do you not therefore err, because you know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have you not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err"

can you explain what the Spirit of God is saying in these 4 verses above ^^^
Who does the dead represents?
Who's the dead?

The dead are those who have no spiritual awareness of God, like Atheist they are considered the dead, because they do not believe in God, so they are considered spiritually dead to God. As in not knowing God or believe in God.
Therefore Atheists are spiritually dead.
Their not actually dead, like being dead in the grave.
But spiritually dead to God.

You see there are two aspects of the dead
1 being Spiritual dead
2 being dead in the grave

Here again Christ Jesus speaking, saying in the book of Matthew 8:22--"But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead:
bury their dead"

We know that the dead can not bury the dead
So what exactly is Jesus saying here.
If you take Atheists being spiritually dead to God
Therefore it would be let the Atheists
( dead ) bury their dead.
This doesn't just pertains to Atheists alone, but anyone who doesn't believe in God nor believe in God
What this means is, they have no spiritual awareness of God, Thereby they are spiritually dead to God.

Those that are alive unto God, are the spiritual living to God, they have awareness of God.

In the book of Revelation, here we find
Christ Jesus saying 7 times
"He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit say unto the churches"

But why so much emphasis on saying this
7 times?

Christ Jesus trying catch people to read what the Spirit is saying to the 7 churches
In chapters 2-3.
As there is alot of warnings that is being said in chapters 2-3 to the churches.

So in all of this is spiritual discernment.

So spiritual discernment is to know the difference between those that are dead in the grave and those who have no awareness of God. being spiritually dead to God.
Maybe this can be of some help.
Have you ever heard the term, as in reading between the lines.
That's kinda like doing with spiritual discernment reading what is not there, but reading between the lines.

So we know that's it's impossible for the dead to bury their dead.
But in reading in between the lines, we find the dead represents those who have no awareness of God, they are spiritually dead to God.
I hope this is of some help in understanding what it means in having Spiritual discernment in the Bible/scriptures

acts17-11

• NIV Study Notes: The Christian is not to judge hypocritically or self-righteously, as can be seen from the context. [But] Scripture repeatedly exhorts believers to evaluate carefully and choose between good and bad people and things. The Christian is to "test everything":
  

1 Thes 5:21 (Phi) "By all means use your judgment, and hold on to whatever is good."

• A.W. Tozer: "Among the gifts of the Spirit scarcely one is of greater practical usefulness than the gift of discernment. This gift should be highly valued and frankly sought as being almost indispensable in these critical times. This gift will enable us to distinguish the chaff from the wheat and to divide the manifestations of the flesh from the operations of the Spirit."
  

• For clarity, let's use the word discern for the judgment that God encourages, and criticize for inappropriate judgments. By context, try to identify whether the word judgment, when used in Scripture, means discernment or criticism.

 

[Faithofchristian]

acts17-11

• NIV Study Notes: The Christian is not to judge hypocritically or self-righteously, as can be seen from the context. [But] Scripture repeatedly exhorts believers to evaluate carefully and choose between good and bad people and things. The Christian is to "test everything":

1 Thes 5:21 (Phi) "By all means use your judgment, and hold on to whatever is good."

• A.W. Tozer: "Among the gifts of the Spirit scarcely one is of greater practical usefulness than the gift of discernment. This gift should be highly valued and frankly sought as being almost indispensable in these critical times. This gift will enable us to distinguish the chaff from the wheat and to divide the manifestations of the flesh from the operations of the Spirit."

• For clarity, let's use the word discern for the judgment that God encourages, and criticize for inappropriate judgments. By context, try to identify whether the word judgment, when used in Scripture, means discernment or criticism.

So you say Christians are not to judge.

Maybe you should let Christ Jesus know that Christians are not to judge.

Seeing how Christ Jesus tells Christians to judge in the book of John 7:24
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment"

Now isn't that amazing, how Christ Jesus defeated what your trying to say.

Therefore Christ Jesus tells Christians to judge, but not by the appearance.
But to judge righteous judgement.

Have you any idea what righteous judgement is ?
Righteous judgement means, make sure without a doubt that the person is doing what they are revealing.
Then judge accordingly, if i want to have anything to do with them.

It seems your saying one thing and Christ Jesus saying another thing.
So who do you think i should listen to.
You or Christ Jesus.
As for me I will listen to Christ Jesus.
Seeing how Christ Jesus tells me that I can judge, but not by the appearance.

It seems people do not search out things properly before they say things.

Look I do know the bible quite well, so whatever you go to throw at me, I will definitely come back to you, to show you, the error of what your saying.

 

[sooda]

So you say Christians are not to judge.

Maybe you should let Christ Jesus know that Christians are not to judge.

Seeing how Christ Jesus tells Christians to judge in the book of John 7:24
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment"

Now isn't that amazing, how Christ Jesus defeated what your trying to say.

Therefore Christ Jesus tells Christians to judge, but not by the appearance.
But to judge righteous judgement.

Have you any idea what righteous judgement is ?
Righteous judgement means, make sure without a doubt that the person is doing what they are revealing.
Then judge accordingly, if i want to have anything to do with them.

It seems your saying one thing and Christ Jesus saying another thing.
So who do you think i should listen to.
You or Christ Jesus.
As for me I will listen to Christ Jesus.
Seeing how Christ Jesus tells me that I can judge, but not by the appearance.

It seems people do not search out things properly before they say things.

Look I do know the bible quite well, so whatever you go to throw at me, I will definitely come back to you, to show you, the error of what your saying.

I think its pretty clear.

"The Christian is not to judge hypocritically or self-righteously, as can be seen from the context. [But] Scripture repeatedly exhorts believers to evaluate carefully and choose between good and bad people and things."

You sure have a chip on your shoulder. What Church denomination do you espouse?

 

[Faithofchristian]

I think its pretty clear.

"The Christian is not to judge hypocritically or self-righteously, as can be seen from the context. [But] Scripture repeatedly exhorts believers to evaluate carefully and choose between good and bad people and things."

You sure have a chip on your shoulder. What Church denomination do you espouse?

I do not belong to any church or any Religious organizations.

I will only follow what Christ Jesus establishes in his word and no others.

As Christ Jesus said in John 7:24
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment"

Therefore Christ Jesus gives a Christian the right to judge, as long it's not by the appearance.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes. They have other motivations. However, that they have other motivations does NOT mean that one of them isn't 'getting rid of theism."

I've just explained to you how that's exactly what it means.
They get rid of whatever they perceive as a threat to their lasting power. If they perceive theism as such a threat, then they'll try to get rid of that as well. Not all dictators see theism as a threat. Lots of them also see it as a great tool for easy manipulation.

Stop trying to pretend as if (a)theism is so special in such scenario's. It's not.

You're completely missing the point.

Y'know, the kings who sent their barons and knights out on crusade had other motives for doing that than 'in the Name of God." In fact, those motives included ridding themselves of men who wanted to take the throne for themselves, who were fighting among themselves for land and power that was in shorter and shorter supply, and to open up the silk road for themselves. "Freeing Jerusalem" and "In the Name of God" were excuses, not motives.

Perhaps. Personally, I doubt it. But perhaps. However, it was important to make it about that, to get the people motivated to fight "for god's glory". Nothing motivates the ignorant subjects more then letting them think to fight god's war.

So that would be a fine example of leaders using religion as a tool to get what they want, in that case.

But their other motives do not mean that some of them weren't honestly out to 'free Jerusalem,' as well.

Sure, but here again you seem to miss the point.
That somebody does something in the name of a god they actually believe in, is a sensible thing to propose. But to say that somebody does something in the name of not believing in X, makes zero sense.

Nobody does anything in the name of unbelief of whatever.
Actions only come from positive motivations, not from negative ones.

You do things in the name of X, not in the name of "not X".

No it's not

Except that it absolutely is.

Every incarnation of theism comes with a religious lore full of claims and some kind of instruction on how to live to please the god(s) of that particular religion.

No incarnation of atheism comes with similar things.
Every incarnation of atheism is simply "I don't buy the claims of any incarnation of theism".

Both terms are 'catch all' buckets in which ideologies and opinions regarding deity...which DO have 'positive' claims, exist.

That's true for the word "theism".
It's not true for the word "atheism", as I have just explained.

"god exists" is a claim
"i don't believe you" as a response to that claim, is not a claim.

See above. You are now committing the 'no true Atheist' fallacy.

No

PLENTY of atheistic ideas have definite stances that differ from other atheists

Which is a clear hint that these ideas are seperate from atheism.

"Strong' atheism vs. 'weak' atheism is just one division

Both of which, as I already said, are "atheism + other stuff"

, and they have very different stances on this single issue.

No. I guarantee you that the stance for all atheists (weak, strong, whatever) on the god claim will be "I don't believe that claim". I guarantee you that that is true for literally every atheist.


And that's the only thing that defines "atheism".
You can add stuff to that all you want, but it will necessarily be atheism + other stuff.

The "atheism" part, is just that: "i don't believe the god/supernatural exists claim".

That 'additional stuff' depends upon atheism to hang upon. Just like Mormonism and Hinduism are both theism + additional stuff.

No.
They are different incarnations of theism.
This is what I said previously: theism is a catch all bucket, but atheism is not.
Atheism is just a word to describe someone that doesn't follow any form of theism.

There are different incarnations of theism.
This is not the case for atheism.

Well, the reason for being for nations with state religions never is whatever the religion is, either, but you guys sure love to attribute all the violence committed by such states to the religion. What I am seeing here is an amazing double standard.

Have you ever heared the term "theocracy"?
Maybe you should look it up.

There is no double standard.
There is only you not comprehending that theism is a thing and atheism just a single response to that thing.
Atheism isn't a thing by itself.

This is why there is no "atheist" equivalence of a "theorcracy".

There are things like feodalism, secular democracy, communism,... And theocracy. But there is no "atheocracy" or whatever.

Because aheism isn't an ideology with claims and instructions on how to live or how to organize a society. There's nothing there to build a policy and/or political system around.

I am simply using your standards of judging things here.

But the problem is that you are starting with false definitions as premises. You fail to recognise what atheism is all about and you seem determined to continue getting it wrong.

Would you like to tell me the difference between a theistic nation which uses religion as an excuse....and an atheistic nation which uses 'get rid of religion and "imagine' the world we'd have" as an excuse?

I'ld rather have you give an example of such a so-called "atheistic nation".

And don't forget to demonstrate / support your claims.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

LOLOL.. Sharia isn't going to rule the planet.. There is NO place in the Muslim world that is ruled by Sharia.

We have had Beit Din in the US for 250 years and its not a problem.

I find it suspect when people are so focused on trashing the other guy whether they are Muslim, Christian, Jew or other.

Do you know what Sharia means? It means the well worn path to lifegiving water. How bloody sinister is that?

Tell it to the many people who got their hands, feet or heads chopped of, were stoned, received X lashes from a whip,.... as a punishment, resulting from a ruling by a shariah court.

 

[sooda]

Tell it to the many people who got their hands, feet or heads chopped of, were stoned, received X lashes from a whip,.... as a punishment, resulting from a ruling by a shariah court.

Are you opposed to capital punishment?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Are you opposed to capital punishment?

Yes.

But not nearly as much as I oppose violent, barbaric, public execution and maiming.

Not that my opinion on such practices matters to the point I was making, off course.

 

[sooda]

Yes.

But not nearly as much as I oppose violent, barbaric, public execution and maiming.

Not that my opinion on such practices matters to the point I was making, off course.

There is a protocol for lashing that limits range of motion so Its public humiliation rather than a beating.

Amputations are for 3rd conviction for grand larceny with violence. Our prison population is much larger per capita than theirs.

People know what the law is.. Its not a secret.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There is a protocol for lashing that limits range of motion so Its public humiliation rather than a beating.

Ow, I guess it's not so bad then.

Amputations are for 3rd conviction for grand larceny with violence. Our prison population is much larger per capita than theirs.

Ow, I guess it's not so bad then.

​

People know what the law is.. Its not a secret.

I'm really not interested in your apologetics nore in your denial.
You made a claim. You said that there are no shariah ruled countries.

I pointed out that this is obviously false as every other day, there are cases of public beheadings, amputations, beatings, stonings, etc as a result of rulings by literally shariah courts.

 

[sooda]

Ow, I guess it's not so bad then.

Ow, I guess it's not so bad then.

​

I'm really not interested in your apologetics nore in your denial.
You made a claim. You said that there are no shariah ruled countries.

I pointed out that this is obviously false as every other day, there are cases of public beheadings, amputations, beatings, stonings, etc as a result of rulings by literally shariah courts.

There are 4 or 5 schools of juris prudence but there is NO country that has pure Sharia law.

I understand your views, but its their culture.. Their laws are not ambiguous..

Public shaming keeps people out of prison.. and it clearly effective.

As for capital punishment? We have that as well. Bernie Madoff wouldn't have gotten 300 years in the pen.. He would have been executed for swindling .. that's "sorcery".

In Islam the victim has more rights and consideration than the accused.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There are 4 or 5 schools of juris prudence but there is NO country that has pure Sharia law.

Yeah, I'm not really interested in the "no true shariah law" fallacy either.
I don't care what the eutopian idea is of what it is supposed to be like.

I just look at the world and look at how it is practiced / implemented - as that is what we actually have to deal with.

Communism sounds fine on eutopian paper as well. Who cares. In the real world, the communism we actually have to deal with is the likes of the Soviet Union and North Korea.

I understand your views, but its their culture.. Their laws are not ambiguous..
Public shaming keeps people out of prison.. and it clearly effective.

How civilised.

As for capital punishment? We have that as well.

"We"? I don't know where you think I live, but where I live, capital punishment is illegal and seen as extremely barbaric.

In Islam the victim has more rights and consideration than the accused.

Don't make me link cases where rape victims were stoned to death because of being adulturers.

 

[ecco]

As Christ Jesus said in John 7:24
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment"

Therefore Christ Jesus gives a Christian the right to judge, as long it's not by the appearance.

He does, does he?
Luke 6:37-42

37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged."

 

[ecco]

As Christ Jesus said in John 7:24
"Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment"

Therefore Christ Jesus gives a Christian the right to judge, as long it's not by the appearance.

WRONG!

In context, he is telling those people to not compare him to poorly to Moses.

19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? 20The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee? 21Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel. 22Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers; ) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. 23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.​

Did you intentionally take one verse out of context to suit your agenda? Or are you ignorant of its meaning in the context of Jesus' entire comment?