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Featured The Original Sin: who is to blame?

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by 9-18-1, Apr 15, 2019 at 1:29 PM.

  1. 9-18-1

    9-18-1 Active Member

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    Are so-called "holy" scriptures necessarily true because they are holy, or are (were?) they holy because they are necessarily (observably) true? Which way does it go? What actually gives scriptures the attention and regard adherents treat them with?

    Putting these questions aside, picking up after Adam hearkens unto the voice of his wife and eats the fruit, what happens?

    -Both their eyes are opened and they realize they are naked
    -Adam hides from god in fear for shame of his nakedness
    -God approaches and inquires as to the whereabouts of Adam
    -Adam emerges explaining why he hid himself
    -God asks if Adam ate the fruit that was forbidden to him

    Now how does Adam reply?

    Genesis 3:12
    ויאמר האדם האשה אשר נתתה עמדי הוא נתנה לי מן העץ ואכל
    And the man said The woman whom thou gavest to be with me she gave me of the tree and I did eat

    In other words: Adam did not either recognize and/or acknowledge his own iniquity before attempting to implicate the woman as having caused it. Do we see any indication (ie. religions) with which such behavior is (institutionalized, and is) still on-going on the planet? Are men blaming/shaming women and implicating them as the reason for their own iniquities?

    Even as a non-theist, the problem is simple: when the lower organ (ie. sex) rules over the higher organ (ie. brain) such that the latter is subject to (ie. only operates based on) the former (re: sex), this is the same as Eve giving the fruit to Adam. The story is not literal/historical; it is describing the "origin of sin" in a symbolic way using people as archetypes for the relationship the brain has to the sex organ (in any being).

    What is most depressing is this story is literally at the beginning/heart of the entire Abrahamic trilogy: Judaism/Christianity/Islam all owing their very existence to it.

    Islam obviously rejects the one-man-one-woman Edenic frame of reference entirely: holding a man himself having 11 wives in his life (9 at one time: what really is 'infidelity'?) as perfect and infallible: his own adherents being allowed up to 4. Where is it written from Adam's own rib was derived 4 Eve's? It is not - else it is impossible to establish peace and harmony if not a simple 1:1 balance between man and woman (not caring to be dragged into the war on gender minefield/battlefield: there are only two biological, immutable, organ-defined male-or-female humans).

    This aside, that the Torah has at least 4-5 different authors is itself catastrophic for the entire Abrahamic pantheon: if there was no potent delivery of the Torah, the Abrahamic god (incl. Christianity and Islam) are rendered null. The same central "claim" at the basis of Judaism is the same central "claim" made by Islam: "we are in possession of the perfect, inimitable, unaltered, inerrant word of god". There are only three options:

    i. Only one is correct
    ii. They are both wrong and false
    iii. They are both (somehow) right

    This is why 100's of millions of people are dead: "belief". The problem is as described in the first few chapters of Genesis (despite it being man-made) but even those who treat it as an authority are even more ridiculous for not giving it the attention it allegedly demands.

    So who is to blame? Nobody: when one realizes there is nobody left to blame except for themselves (Adam's mistake) this is the opening of the eyes of Adam. What does one do... hide in fear? Or own up? That is the choice each has to own for themselves.

    People who attempt to blame their own iniquities on others are the same thing as Canaanites: psychological projection (ie. tiller of own soil) who grows enmity, hatred, desire to spill blood and kills with the jaw of an animal. The envy of seeing other people not suffering (Abel) as much as they suffer (Cain) is where socialism comes from: making everyone else suffer as those who suffer themselves. Take the example:

    The HRC/DNC attempt to pin Russia collusion on POTUS when in fact it was the HRC/DNC that colluded (while spying on Trump) is precisely how this Canaanite human sacrifice works and is embedded in Judeo-Islamic tribalism mentalities (ie. "believer" vs. "unbeliever" re: accepting Muhammad as a final messenger).

    It is still going on everywhere: political smears/assassinations, unfounded allegations etc. However, there is a secret key (I call it the key of Solomon): the ability to see the 'mark' of the Canaanite(s) by understanding whatever they are accusing others of, that is what they are trying to "hide" about themselves.

    Don't "believe" or take my word for these, but feel free to test them yourselves: every single time you see/hear an accusation, first ask if it actually applies to the one making it. You will see it for yourself - like clockwork. Chastity takes the energy from the lower organ into the brain and enhances perception, casting a discernible glow on objects and people such that this becomes more and more noticeable over time. It is probably related to the basis of Christianity re: chastity being a requirement, but Christians themselves don't even know/practice it anyways.
     
  2. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Its a foundational myth... why argue about it as if its history?

    Do you think Romulus and Remus were suckled by a she wolf????
     
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  3. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Sorry, just trying to sort the NONSENSE
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    Not sure there "was" an original sin. What is written is merely ancient man's interpretation of events as he, not God, saw them.
     
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  4. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Who saw what? There was no one around.
     
  5. Altfish

    Altfish Well-Known Member

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    Absolute poppycock made up by controlling religious leaders.
     
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  6. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

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    The original sin, or basic sin to which all the rest are corollary, is denying the father. It doesn't change anything, but it can make life quite uncomfortable. We are not naked. We do all sorts of crazy, often painful things based on that fear.
     
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  7. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    There isn't a problem with foundational myths.. Every culture has them. The problem is the jerks who think they are history.

    Romulus and Remus - Wikipedia
     
  8. 9-18-1

    9-18-1 Active Member

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    The story is not literal/historical; it is describing the "origin of sin" in a symbolic way using people as archetypes for the relationship the brain has to the sex organ (in any being).

    This is in the OP.

    See the following response:

     
  9. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Oh please is this the same God who said be fruitful and multiply?
     
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  10. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Sorry, just trying to sort the NONSENSE
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    Well, yes these stories were told around the fires for a very long time. I am not sure when Genesis was first written. Wiki says that Solomon's scribes first wrote it down around 950 BC, so it was carried forward verbally for how long? That is the western Christian tradition. I do not know if the eastern Orthodox have the same story. Muslims simply say they accept the "People of The Book".
     
  11. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    Simply put, original means: first
    The ' first ' sin was the first ' lie ' as found at Genesis 3:4 when Satan said Eve would Not die if she broke God's Law.
    Since we sin, we die according to Scripture, which is in harmony that we do die, and we can't stop sinning.
     
  12. URAVIP2ME

    URAVIP2ME Veteran Member

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    What ! I wonder where you got the ^ above ^ idea about the relationship of the brain to the sex organ___________
    The original sin, or first sin, was a lie ( Nothing to do with sex )
    Adam and Eve were already told to multiply ( have children ) at Genesis 1:28.
    The serpent told the first or original sin at Genesis 3:4 that Eve would Not die if she broke God's Law.
    That is the first or original sin, No sex involved.
    Rather, it was more of a reference that Eve could be like God ( be a goddess ) in choosing for herself.
     
  13. sooda

    sooda Well-Known Member

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    Probably not.. Exposure to the rich cultural narrative and mythology of the Babylonians was probably the catalyst for the Jews creating a history and identity for themselves.

    The Habiru were landless, lawless, unaffiliated Bedouin.

    And what an amazing story they told.
     
  14. Augustus

    Augustus the Unreasonable

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    Lots of belief systems have some form of concept that humans are irredeemably flawed. One of the major problems of modernity is that too many people suffer from the conceit that we are not.

    The optimistic view of history is the source of many problems as it operates under the false assumption that we can be 'fixed'. Our tendency towards such hubris is one of the reasons we are irredeemably flawed though so people will continue to operate under this obvious delusion.
     
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  15. 9-18-1

    9-18-1 Active Member

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    Actually no such thing is written in the original Hebrew: Adam and Eve are told to be "fruitful" and become learned/masters (the same word for rabbi). The English translation is extremely misleading.

    See above - the multiplication has nothing to do with having children.

    The serpent represents the sexual energy (as it always has) - when it gives to the brain in the wrong way, this manifests death. When done in the right way, this manifests life.

    The serpent is not evil - it is neutral, same as god. The polarization is only applied upon the choice - to eat or not to eat.

    If the higher organ commands the lower, this is 'good' and one becomes "like" elohim: knowing good and evil.
    If the lower organ commands the higher, this is 'evil' and one dies.

    These two possibilities reflect the "warning" from god and the "suggestion" from the serpent respectively.
     
  16. Ellen Brown

    Ellen Brown Sorry, just trying to sort the NONSENSE
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    I hope there is something out there that is smarter than me.
    I do not intend to be snotty or disrespectful. Religion in general has been a painful but sometimes educational experience.

    My own premise is that we are as God created us to be. God knows that we will at times function outside of his wishes. I believe that the larger purpose of the Creator is being fulfilled even as we seem to hate each other to our own destruction.
     
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  17. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    It is not a view within the Catholic Church that if someone dies without having their "original sin" forgiven that they cannot get to heaven, and there's different opinions within Catholic theological circles as to what "original sin" may be. We know it manly comes from Paul's writings, and we also know that Paul often slipped into his Hellenistic education that often used dichotomy and the concept of "essence", so it's hard to tell if he meant this should be taken literally or just figuratively.
     
  18. Enoch07

    Enoch07 Welcome to Clown World!
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    The answer lies within a mirror.
     
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  19. Tony Bristow-Stagg

    Tony Bristow-Stagg A World Citizen
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    It has been suggested we are created at the end of darkness and the beginning of light. The light is our potential within.

    As such we must choose to reveal the light, or remain in darkness.

    Regards Tony
     
  20. WalterTrull

    WalterTrull Godfella

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    Ever feel like you're sitting in a gigantic bowl of bean dip?
     
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