The Origin of the Trinity

[Bishka]

I've only posted those pages so that we could have a non-biased outlook on the concept of the trinity.

I don't believe in it, because there is no real eveidence that there is. It's speculation and interpretation.

 

[joeboonda]

If anyone wants a highly non-biased site, try this page on wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

Absolutley NO BIAS there.

Actually, it does state some things as supposed fact, that I nor many Bible scholars agree with, but, its cool.

 

[Bishka]

Actually, it does state some things as supposed fact, that I nor many Bible scholars agree with, but, its cool.

It has no bias toward other faiths though, and that's what I was particularly going for.

 

[Cordoba]

The Trinity - a Muslim Perspective

A lecture by Abdal-Hakim Murad given to a group of Christians in Oxford, England.

 

[michel]

The word Trinity may appear in Theophilus' writings, but the doctrine established at Nicea is not the same Trinity. I never said the Nicene council was the source of the pagan attributes of the trinity. It was neo-Platonized long before that.​

Hey, I wasn't pointing the answer at you...I was just posting something I read..........

Joeboonda, this is a little more then a biased website




Found that within the first three sentences. You'd actually be suprised how many of us 'anti-trinitarians' have had a good, ture, factual and deep presentation of Christianity. From observation, this site is telling what religions and ideas are wrong, instead of focusing on their own doctrine.

I'm truly sorry Becky, I didn't see that.

Unbiassed, From Encarta 2004..........

Trinity, in Christian theology, doctrine that God exists as three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—who are united in one substance or being. The doctrine is not taught explicitly in the New Testament, where the word God almost invariably refers to the Father; but already Jesus Christ, the Son, is seen as standing in a unique relation to the Father, while the Holy Spirit is also emerging as a distinct divine person.
The term trinitas was first used in the 2nd century, by the Latin theologian Tertullian, but the concept was developed in the course of the debates on the nature of Christ. In the 4th century, the doctrine was finally formulated; using terminology still employed by Christian theologians, the doctrine taught the co-equality of the persons of the Godhead. In the West, the 4th-century theologian St Augustine of Hippo's influential work De Trinitate (On the Trinity, 400-416) compared the three-in-oneness of God with analogous structures in the human mind and suggested that the Holy Spirit may be understood as the mutual love between Father and Son (although this second point seems difficult to reconcile with the belief that the Spirit is a distinct, co-equal member of the Trinity). The stress on equality, however, was never understood as detracting from a certain primacy of the Father—from whom the other two persons derive, even if they do so eternally. For an adequate understanding of the trinitarian conception of God, the distinctions among the persons of the Trinity must not become so sharp that there seems to be a plurality of gods, nor may these distinctions be swallowed up in an undifferentiated monism.
The doctrine of the Trinity may be understood on different levels. On one level, it is a means of construing the word God in Christian discourse. God is not a uniquely Christian word, and it needs specific definition in Christian theology. This need for a specifically Christian definition is already apparent in the New Testament, where Paul says, “there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'—yet for us there is one God, the Father ..., and one Lord, Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 8:5-6). These words constitute the beginning of a process of clarification and definition, of which the end product is the doctrine of the Trinity. At another level, the doctrine may be seen as a transcript of Christian experience: the God of the Hebrew tradition had become known in a new way, first in the person of Christ, and then in the Spirit that moved in the Church. On a third, speculative level of understanding, the doctrine reveals the dynamism of the Christian conception of God—involving notions of a source, a coming forth, and a return (primordial, expressive, and unitive Being). In this sense, the Christian doctrine has parallels both in philosophy (the 19th-century German philosopher G. W. F. Hegel's Absolute) and in other religions (the Trimurti of Hinduism).
© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

The Trinity - a Muslim Perspective

A lecture by Abdal-Hakim Murad given to a group of Christians in Oxford, England.

A number of difficulties will beset any presentation of Muslim understandings of the Trinity

I have always understood that the Muslim 'problem' with the trinity is that ,to a Muslim, the Trinity sounds contradictory to the principle of mono-theism (at least that is the impression I have gained from one or two Muslim members here, who keep repeating "Buth there is only one God........"​

 

[Super Universe]

I once knew a man who was a contractor. He was also a husband, and a father.

 

[Cordoba]

I have always understood that the Muslim 'problem' with the trinity is that ,to a Muslim, the Trinity sounds contradictory to the principle of mono-theism (at least that is the impression I have gained from one or two Muslim members here, who keep repeating "Buth there is only one God........"

Hello Michel:

Yes, that's correct.

God is One. The Eternal Creator (The Necessary Being) is not composed of parts, and here is a logical proof:

The Necessary Being must have the following epithets:

[1] It must be eternal. If we assume anything save this, then this will denote that it has a period of non-existence, and anything whose existence is preceded by a period of non-existence is an incident and needs a cause to endow it with existence. If the Necessary Being was not eternal, it would have needed an originator, and this is impossible because the Necessary Being is that who is self-existent; it needs no cause to endow it with existence and is the originator of all existing things.

[2] Non-existence can never befall the Necessary Being, otherwise it would be deprived of itself and this is impossible.

[3] It must not be composed of parts, because if this were the case it would have required the precedent presence of these parts, which have an independent existence. Hence it would have needed the existence of something else, and the existence of the Necessary Being is not due to any cause save itself. Moreover, if it had been composed of parts its existence would have depended on the existence of these parts.

http://www.islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=100&chapter=2

And the main argument is that Jesus, peace be upon him, never mentioned the word trinity.

Peace and all the best.

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

I don't really know how to explain it, but I believe that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are three seperate entities that make up the godhead called God. See the link for details.

Is God Three or One?

 

[Cordoba]

Thank you for the link.

"In John 8:17-18, Jesus Himself, describes the Father and the Son as two distinct individuals."

That makes sense (from a Muslim perspective), as God is The Creator, and Jesus, peace be upon him, is God's prophet.

Did Jesus, peace be upon him, say he was divine?

 

[Katzpur]

I once knew a man who was a contractor. He was also a husband, and a father.

And your point is?

 

[kreeden]

The word Trinity may appear in Theophilus' writings, but the doctrine established at Nicea is not the same Trinity. I never said the Nicene council was the source of the pagan attributes of the trinity. It was neo-Platonized long before that.​

Yes , the concept of a Trinity was around long before Christ even . But I don't think that is what this tread is about , is it ?​

 

[Cordoba]

God's religion has always been the same religion since the time of Prophet Noah, peace be upon him, till His last Prophet.

The Faith has never changed. It has always been Monotheism: the belief in the One and Only Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

The Prophets and Messengers whom God sent to guide humanity to His Path over the centuries each continued the message of earlier Revelations, that God is One.

It's not only Jesus, peace be upon him, but not one of God's prophets ever mentioned the trinity. Why?

 

[James the Persian]

The Faith has never changed. It has always been Monotheism: the belief in the One and Only Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

The Trinity is not in any way in opposition to Monotheism. Only those who misunderstand what the doctrine of the Trinity is could ever make this argument.

James

 

[michel]

Hello Michel:

Yes, that's correct.

God is One. The Eternal Creator (The Necessary Being) is not composed of parts, and here is a logical proof:

The Necessary Being must have the following epithets:

[1] It must be eternal. If we assume anything save this, then this will denote that it has a period of non-existence, and anything whose existence is preceded by a period of non-existence is an incident and needs a cause to endow it with existence. If the Necessary Being was not eternal, it would have needed an originator, and this is impossible because the Necessary Being is that who is self-existent; it needs no cause to endow it with existence and is the originator of all existing things.

[2] Non-existence can never befall the Necessary Being, otherwise it would be deprived of itself and this is impossible.

[3] It must not be composed of parts, because if this were the case it would have required the precedent presence of these parts, which have an independent existence. Hence it would have needed the existence of something else, and the existence of the Necessary Being is not due to any cause save itself. Moreover, if it had been composed of parts its existence would have depended on the existence of these parts.

http://www.islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=100&chapter=2

And the main argument is that Jesus, peace be upon him, never mentioned the word trinity.

Peace and all the best.

The 'logical' proof you submit, with respect, is based upon the Muslim belief that Jesus Christ was nothing more than a prophet. In the Christian belief, Christ was a human embodiment of an element of God himself. I have tried very hard to explain the Christian concept to Muslims here, on a few occasions, and, apparently with little success.

God the Father, the son and the holy ghost are all different 'faces' of the one, monotheist deity. I cannot make it clearer.

 

[Cordoba]

Thanks Michel.

I believe you'll find that many Christians too don't understand the trinity. It's not only Muslims.

Peace and all the best.