post two of two
Pegg said : “ I have not given you the scriptures which give us the time frame yet because i feel we need to first be clear about whether John wrote about the war in heaven as a future or past event.”
This discussion has always been about when Satan was cast out of heaven and the war in heaven occured. You have said it occured before the creation of Adam and Eve. But i need you to honestly ask yourself whether Johns vision was of a future of past event...
So based on revelations account of that war in heaven, can you tell me if you think it is showing a vision of the future or the past?
Pegg, I disagree about the context of our discussion. The discussion was about how and WHEN the angel Lucifer became an enemy to God, which was then the cause of him being cast out of heaven. (presumably if the angel Lucifer had NOT become an enemy, then he would NOT have been cast out of heaven at all...) These are related issues. The early Christians, as I have shown, believed Lucifer became an enemy to God BEFORE he interacted with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. There had already been one disagreement and in the Garden of Eden, Satan was NOT acting as a loyal angel of God, at that point in time.
These are Jewish texts. The Talmud (Midrash HaGadol) points out that the context of the narative, Satan, as the serpent was an evil inclination. Rashi (from Midrash also points out he is lying to Eve and is, already a deciever when he encounters the couple in the Garden. Stones printed i.e. Chumash refers to the sages (the earliest rabbis of renown) discuss the evil tactics of this Evil one. Micrash HaNe'elam explains that the Satans most common wiles to seduce any Jew to disobey God are simply models of Satans behaviour in the Garden. The entire narrative was written with this very context in the minds of the Jews who edited them in the earliest Jewish textual histories we have.
Pegg, you remain confused about early Judeo-Christian historical tradition. Your generalization of "revelations" as speaking only of "future" events is simplistic to the point that it cannot create a realistic model for timelines as they occur in revelations (or any text for that matter)
PAST EVENTS in early Christian theology :
Obviously, the early Judeo-Christian and Islamic texts describe their belief that Lucifer was already an enemy and a liar and was disloyal to God by the time he interacts with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The believed that Lucifer had already been cast down onto the earth by the time he meets Adam and Eve, thus he is on earth and not in heaven. The historical texts described the reasons for the animosity and dispute between God and the angel Lucifer in great detail AND they describe the reason for the Devils animosity with Adam in great detail.
When Jesus speaks of seeing the Devil fall from heaven “like lightning” in Luke 10:18, I believe Jesus is referring to an even in his past (the text and context there is in past tense). THESE specific references refer to past events. However, the Christian texts also have references to events CURRENT in reference to the Life of Jesus and others.
PRESENT EVENTS in Jesus Life :
THESE references referred to PRESENT and ongoing disagreement and interaction between Jesus and the Devil described in Matthew chapt 4 when it describes the devil trying tempt Jesus to prove his divinity. If he casts out a devil, this was an event current to his life. It was not a past or future event. However, there ARE textual references to a future and final conflict with Satan, leading up to his ultimate loss of power and influence. For example :
FUTURE EVENTS :
Your theory that Revelations 1:1 speaks only of future events and thus all of the book refers to future events is irrational since the revelation speaks of events of the past, events of the present, and events to yet occur in the future. If you read further on, you will see references to past, present AND future events referred to in the book of revelations.
The mixture of past, present, and future
The past : For example in the second chapter and, to the churches of Ephesus, Smyrna, and Pergamum, John is to write of past events : men tested (v2), love abandoned (v 4), works done at first (5), past words of Jesus, the first and the last (v8), the past days “of Antipas…who was killed” (v 13)
The present : In the same chapter (ch 2) he is to write of present things such as “you are enduring patiently” (v2); “you are bearing up” (v 2); “you hate the works of the Nicolaitans” (v 6) ; “your tribulation and your poverty (v 9), “the slander of those…” (v 9); “I know where you dwell…” (v 13) etc.
The future : In the same chapter, there are examples of future events such as : “If not, I will come to you…” (v 5); “To him who conquers, I will grant…” (vs 7); “what you are about to suffer…” (v 10); “you will have tribulation…” (v 10);
The mixture of time within phrases : Some sentences have past, present, and future events within just a few show phrases : For example : “…you also have some who hold the teachings of the Nicolaitans (past and present). Repent then. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them…(future).
Pegg, If it helps you to get on with your presentation as to why you think Oct 1st, 1914 is the day after which the Devil was cast out of the presence of God, lets agree to assume that the text of Revelations 12 IS speaking ONLY, of the great and final escatological battle (without having another contextual reference...), where, having accomplished his purposes for mortal mankind, God finishes the Devils influence and power.
Why don’t you then, continue on with your presentation of October 1st as the day, after which the devil is cast out of heaven. Since you claim that your theology comes from the Bible, can you give us the biblical references which show this date? Also, since you claim that the Bible the Jehovahs Witnesses created, comes from a study of the original language, will you please, carefully explain any deviation from the Greek text when you quote from the Jehovahs Witness bible?
Thank you for your time and effort on this point Pegg.
Clear
ακφυσεω
Pegg said : “ I have not given you the scriptures which give us the time frame yet because i feel we need to first be clear about whether John wrote about the war in heaven as a future or past event.”
This discussion has always been about when Satan was cast out of heaven and the war in heaven occured. You have said it occured before the creation of Adam and Eve. But i need you to honestly ask yourself whether Johns vision was of a future of past event...
So based on revelations account of that war in heaven, can you tell me if you think it is showing a vision of the future or the past?
Pegg, I disagree about the context of our discussion. The discussion was about how and WHEN the angel Lucifer became an enemy to God, which was then the cause of him being cast out of heaven. (presumably if the angel Lucifer had NOT become an enemy, then he would NOT have been cast out of heaven at all...) These are related issues. The early Christians, as I have shown, believed Lucifer became an enemy to God BEFORE he interacted with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. There had already been one disagreement and in the Garden of Eden, Satan was NOT acting as a loyal angel of God, at that point in time.
These are Jewish texts. The Talmud (Midrash HaGadol) points out that the context of the narative, Satan, as the serpent was an evil inclination. Rashi (from Midrash also points out he is lying to Eve and is, already a deciever when he encounters the couple in the Garden. Stones printed i.e. Chumash refers to the sages (the earliest rabbis of renown) discuss the evil tactics of this Evil one. Micrash HaNe'elam explains that the Satans most common wiles to seduce any Jew to disobey God are simply models of Satans behaviour in the Garden. The entire narrative was written with this very context in the minds of the Jews who edited them in the earliest Jewish textual histories we have.
Pegg, you remain confused about early Judeo-Christian historical tradition. Your generalization of "revelations" as speaking only of "future" events is simplistic to the point that it cannot create a realistic model for timelines as they occur in revelations (or any text for that matter)
PAST EVENTS in early Christian theology :
Obviously, the early Judeo-Christian and Islamic texts describe their belief that Lucifer was already an enemy and a liar and was disloyal to God by the time he interacts with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. The believed that Lucifer had already been cast down onto the earth by the time he meets Adam and Eve, thus he is on earth and not in heaven. The historical texts described the reasons for the animosity and dispute between God and the angel Lucifer in great detail AND they describe the reason for the Devils animosity with Adam in great detail.
When Jesus speaks of seeing the Devil fall from heaven “like lightning” in Luke 10:18, I believe Jesus is referring to an even in his past (the text and context there is in past tense). THESE specific references refer to past events. However, the Christian texts also have references to events CURRENT in reference to the Life of Jesus and others.
PRESENT EVENTS in Jesus Life :
THESE references referred to PRESENT and ongoing disagreement and interaction between Jesus and the Devil described in Matthew chapt 4 when it describes the devil trying tempt Jesus to prove his divinity. If he casts out a devil, this was an event current to his life. It was not a past or future event. However, there ARE textual references to a future and final conflict with Satan, leading up to his ultimate loss of power and influence. For example :
FUTURE EVENTS :
Your theory that Revelations 1:1 speaks only of future events and thus all of the book refers to future events is irrational since the revelation speaks of events of the past, events of the present, and events to yet occur in the future. If you read further on, you will see references to past, present AND future events referred to in the book of revelations.
The mixture of past, present, and future
The past : For example in the second chapter and, to the churches of Ephesus, Smyrna, and Pergamum, John is to write of past events : men tested (v2), love abandoned (v 4), works done at first (5), past words of Jesus, the first and the last (v8), the past days “of Antipas…who was killed” (v 13)
The present : In the same chapter (ch 2) he is to write of present things such as “you are enduring patiently” (v2); “you are bearing up” (v 2); “you hate the works of the Nicolaitans” (v 6) ; “your tribulation and your poverty (v 9), “the slander of those…” (v 9); “I know where you dwell…” (v 13) etc.
The future : In the same chapter, there are examples of future events such as : “If not, I will come to you…” (v 5); “To him who conquers, I will grant…” (vs 7); “what you are about to suffer…” (v 10); “you will have tribulation…” (v 10);
The mixture of time within phrases : Some sentences have past, present, and future events within just a few show phrases : For example : “…you also have some who hold the teachings of the Nicolaitans (past and present). Repent then. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them…(future).
Pegg, If it helps you to get on with your presentation as to why you think Oct 1st, 1914 is the day after which the Devil was cast out of the presence of God, lets agree to assume that the text of Revelations 12 IS speaking ONLY, of the great and final escatological battle (without having another contextual reference...), where, having accomplished his purposes for mortal mankind, God finishes the Devils influence and power.
Why don’t you then, continue on with your presentation of October 1st as the day, after which the devil is cast out of heaven. Since you claim that your theology comes from the Bible, can you give us the biblical references which show this date? Also, since you claim that the Bible the Jehovahs Witnesses created, comes from a study of the original language, will you please, carefully explain any deviation from the Greek text when you quote from the Jehovahs Witness bible?
Thank you for your time and effort on this point Pegg.
Clear
ακφυσεω
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