"The only-begotten God" in Jn 1:18

[Clear]

[FONT=&quot]Hi :
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[FONT=&quot]I recently bought a NW Translation from a used bookstore recently for a very superficial look at the translation and I was impressed that the NWT correctly excluded the johannine comma and the NWT placed the woman caught in adultery in a second tier position (also correct) and the NWT translation also, impressively, uses the more likely reading for John 1:18.
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[FONT=&quot]The NWT reads : “18 “No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]I am impressed with this attempt [FONT=&quot]to correct this text[/FONT]. However, the correction itsel[FONT=&quot]f[/FONT] left me wondering how this text is seen inside the Jehovahs' Witness view on the trinity (that I admit that I know very little about).[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]1) Who do Jehovah’s witnesses believe that the text “the only-begotten god who is the bosom of the Father” is referring to? (I am asking from the position of agreement with the J. Witness position that the three individuals of the modern trinity were not the same individuals in early Judeo-Christian tradition. )
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[FONT=&quot]2) Do the Jehovahs’ Witnesses have any firm doctrine on when this God was “begotten” and

[FONT=&quot]3) W[/FONT]hat does it mean in Jehovah[FONT=&quot]s' Witness theology [/FONT]for this God to become “begotten”?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thank you in advance for any information on this specific point.
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[FONT=&quot]Clear
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[Pegg]

[FONT=&quot]1) Who do Jehovah’s witnesses believe that the text “the only-begotten god who is the bosom of the Father” is referring to? (I am asking from the position of agreement with the J. Witness position that the three individuals of the modern trinity were not the same individuals in early Judeo-Christian tradition. )
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Hi Clear,

We believe this is a reference to Jesus Christ.

[FONT=&quot]2) Do the Jehovahs’ Witnesses have any firm doctrine on when this God was “begotten” and

[FONT=&quot]3) W[/FONT]hat does it mean in Jehovah[FONT=&quot]s' Witness theology [/FONT]for this God to become “begotten”?[/FONT]

By reading Vs 1 of John 1, we can see that John says that Jesus (the Word) comes into existence "In the beginning"

This beginning means the beginning of Gods creative works. In other words, Christ Jesus was the very first intelligent being created by God. For this reason, we do not believe in the trinity doctrine... we dont believe God and Jesus are the same person. Jesus is an individual created by God before all other things.

Obviously we cannot put a time to this 'beginning'... it simply cannot be known unless Jesus or God himself tells us how old Jesus Christ actually is. But the bible informs us that he is older then the earth and universe.

Prov 8:22  Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth

So Christ is the 'beginning' of Gods creative works and he worked under Gods instruction in the creation of all other things as the Apostle Paul explains in Colossians 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, ... All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist,

It is for this reason that Christ is the 'only begotten' It literally means that he is the only living being whom God directly created. All other living beings came into existence through Christ Jesus.

To be 'only begotten' means to be a single one of a kind. For example, if you are an 'only child' it means your parents only had one child, you.
Likewise, Jesus is the only one who God personally created/begot. Thereafter, God instructed Jesus to create other living beings ie, angles, then the physical universe and all life on earth including man.

 

[Clear]

Regarding New World Translations' John 1:18 : “No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”


1) Clear asked :
“ Who do Jehovah’s witnesses believe that the text “the only-begotten god who is the bosom of the Father” is referring to? “ (opening post)

Pegg answered : “We believe this is a reference to Jesus Christ. “ (post #1)



2) Clear asked :
1) Do the Jehovahs’ Witnesses have any firm doctrine on when this God was “begotten” and
2) What does it mean in Jehovahs' Witness theology for this God to become “begotten”?“ (opening post)

Pegg answered : “ By reading Vs 1 of John 1, we can see that John says that Jesus (the Word) comes into existence "In the beginning"

This beginning means the beginning of Gods creative works. In other words, Christ Jesus was the very first intelligent being created by God. For this reason, we do not believe in the trinity doctrine... we dont believe God and Jesus are the same person. Jesus is an individual created by God before all other things.

Obviously we cannot put a time to this 'beginning'... it simply cannot be known unless Jesus or God himself tells us how old Jesus Christ actually is. But the bible informs us that he is older then the earth and universe. “ (post # 1)




Thank you for the clear and definitive answer Pegg. (that's certainly a refreshing characteristic in discussions...)

I believe your principle is correct that the “only-begotten god” in Jn 1:18 refers to the pre-creation Jesus as a god, who was begotten of the Lord God. (Though no existing greek manuscript has any reference verb to a “coming into existence” of Jesus in John 1:1)
.

John 1:1-2 in the New World Translation says “ In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God.”

In Jehovahs’ Witness theology, does this verse mean that Jesus (as “the Word” who will, after birth, become known as Jesus) was, in some way, a god who was with the Lord God in the beginning of creation?

Again Pegg, thank you in advance for this information. I honestly know very little about JW theology. By the way, I am also very impressed that the NWT renders χαρισ as "undeserved kindness". I think this is much more accurate than the word "grace" which has taken on different meanings over time. This is a very interesting translation.

Clear
φυσεω

 

[Pegg]

Thank you for the clear and definitive answer Pegg. (that's certainly a refreshing characteristic in discussions...)

I believe your principle is correct that the “only-begotten god” in Jn 1:18 refers to the pre-creation Jesus as a god, who was begotten of the Lord God. (Though no existing greek manuscript has any reference verb to a “coming into existence” of Jesus in John 1:1)
.

John 1:1-2 in the New World Translation says “ In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God.”

In Jehovahs’ Witness theology, does this verse mean that Jesus (as “the Word” who will, after birth, become known as Jesus) was, in some way, a god who was with the Lord God in the beginning of creation?

Again Pegg, thank you in advance for this information. I honestly know very little about JW theology. By the way, I am also very impressed that the NWT renders χαρισ as "undeserved kindness". I think this is much more accurate than the word "grace" which has taken on different meanings over time. This is a very interesting translation.

Clear
φυσεω
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Yes, Jesus is most certainly a god according to scripture and if we look at what the term 'god' actually means in hebrew, ʼEl, its likely meaning is “Mighty One; Strong One.”

The word 'El is not exclusively used in reference to Jehovah, but its also the word used as a title for other gods, and even to men.

We also see that the prophets applied the term god to the one who would come as the savior of the world, ie
at Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called ʼEl Gib·bohr′, meaning in hebrew, “Mighty God”

But there is one expression which is never applied to anyone except Jehovah... that hebrew expression is ʼEl Shad·dai′ this is 'God Almighty'
This expression is only used when addressing YHWH Yahweh or Jehovah in the hebrew scriptures. So while it is quite proper to view Jesus as a god, we do not viewed him to be the Almighty... hence his position as a god is relative to Jehovah who created him.

 

[Clear]

Clear asked : John 1:1-2 in the New World Translation says “ In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God.”

In Jehovahs’ Witness theology, does this verse mean that Jesus (as “the Word” who will, after birth, become known as Jesus) was, in some way, a god who was with the Lord God in the beginning of creation?“ (post #3)

Pegg answered : “ Yes, Jesus is most certainly a god according to scripture and if we look at what the term 'god' actually means in hebrew, ʼEl, its likely meaning is “Mighty One; Strong One.” (Post #4)



Thank you again for this information Pegg .

I believe that you are correct that Jesus was “a God” before creation of this earth. So, to make sure that I understand correctly :

1) Jehovahs’ Witnesses believe that the Lord God (i.e., God “#1”, The Father; the God Almighty, etc.) is one God and that the pre-creation Jesus is a second god (i.e. God #2, the Son, the lessor god).

And, if I am correct;

2) Jehovahs' Witnesses believe that God #1 (i.e. the Lord God) directs god #2 (pre-creation Jesus) and god #2 (pre-creation Jesus) does not direct God #1 (i.e. the Lord God).

Is this correct or am I misunderstanding this basic relationship according to Jehovahs’ Witness theology? Again, thanks for the explanation and information.

Clear
σιειω

 

[Pegg]

Clear asked : John 1:1-2 in the New World Translation says “ In the beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God.”

In Jehovahs’ Witness theology, does this verse mean that Jesus (as “the Word” who will, after birth, become known as Jesus) was, in some way, a god who was with the Lord God in the beginning of creation?“ (post #3)

Pegg answered : “ Yes, Jesus is most certainly a god according to scripture and if we look at what the term 'god' actually means in hebrew, ʼEl, its likely meaning is “Mighty One; Strong One.” (Post #4)



Thank you again for this information Pegg .

I believe that you are correct that Jesus was “a God” before creation of this earth. So, to make sure that I understand correctly :

1) Jehovahs’ Witnesses believe that the Lord God (i.e., God “#1”, The Father; the God Almighty, etc.) is one God and that the pre-creation Jesus is a second god (i.e. God #2, the Son, the lessor god).

And, if I am correct;

2) Jehovahs' Witnesses believe that God #1 (i.e. the Lord God) directs god #2 (pre-creation Jesus) and god #2 (pre-creation Jesus) does not direct God #1 (i.e. the Lord God).

Is this correct or am I misunderstanding this basic relationship according to Jehovahs’ Witness theology? Again, thanks for the explanation and information.

Clear
σιειω

Hi Clear,

Yes that is correct.

Jesus is a created being. At one time he did not exist...the only existing being was God the Almighty Father. But at some point in the distant past, he chose to begin his creation and the very first of his creations was a being like himself made in his image and in his likeness. That person was Jesus and in his pre-human form he was also the chief of all the angels...the bible calls him Michael the Arch Angel.

And yes, Jesus is subject to God Almighty (Jehovah) as we can see from the scriptures:

1 Cor 15:24  Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.


We know that Jesus holds all authority in heaven and on earth... but its only for a limited time. Once the completion of Gods purpose is fulfilled and Christ has fulfilled his assigned role, he will then subject himself to God Almighty so that 'God may be all things to everyone' .

So this scripture really shows us that Christs authority is given to him for a set time and set purpose. And once Jesus submits himself to God, I have to wonder who the trinitarians will subject themselves to because right now they really have no idea who the Father is.... to them, Jesus is God.

 

[Clear]

Clear asked : “ So, to make sure that I understand correctly :
1) Jehovahs’ Witnesses believe that the Lord God (i.e., God “#1”, The Father; the God Almighty, etc.) is one God and that the pre-creation Jesus is a second god (i.e. God #2, the Son, the lessor god).
And, if I am correct;
2) Jehovahs' Witnesses believe that God #1 (i.e. the Lord God) directs god #2 (pre-creation Jesus) and god #2 (pre-creation Jesus) does not direct God #1 (i.e. the Lord God).

Is this correct or am I misunderstanding this basic relationship according to Jehovahs’ Witness theology? Again, thanks for the explanation and information.“

Pegg said : “ Yes that is correct.“


Thank you for the information Pegg

My current understanding regarding Jehovahs’ Witness theology is :

The almighty Father (God #1) , creates the Son (God #2)
Before the world is created, God #1 (the God “almighty”, the “Father”, etc.) created God #2 (a lessor God – i.e. not “almighty”; the “Son” of God) who later entered the world as Jesus Christ described in the New Testament.

The almighty Father (God #1) delegates tasks and authority to the Son (God #2)
The almighty Father (God #1), assigns the Son (God #2) to administrate and accomplish most of the processes of material creation. The authority of the Son (God #2) to administrate in the Fathers' plan is delegated to the son by the Father, but does not originate in the son. Please let me know if I misunderstand any point.



My next questions are : In Jehovahs’ Witness theology :

A) Once material creation is accomplished and Adam and Eve are placed upon the earth, what role does the Father (God #1) give to the son (God #2) from the beginning of Adam’s placement into the Garden of Eden until Adam is driven out of the Garden? (if the Witnesses believe the Son had a role)

B) After Adam is driven out of the Garden of Eden (after his “fall&#8221, what Role does the Father (God #1) delegate to the Son (God #2) (i.e. during the entire “old testamental” eras)?

Thank you for your clear and concise answers Pegg, I did not know much of this regarding Jehovahs’ Witness theology.


Clear
νεακω

 

[Pegg]

Thank you for the information Pegg

My current understanding regarding Jehovahs’ Witness theology is :

The almighty Father (God #1) , creates the Son (God #2)
Before the world is created, God #1 (the God “almighty”, the “Father”, etc.) created God #2 (a lessor God – i.e. not “almighty”; the “Son” of God) who later entered the world as Jesus Christ described in the New Testament.

The almighty Father (God #1) delegates tasks and authority to the Son (God #2)
The almighty Father (God #1), assigns the Son (God #2) to administrate and accomplish most of the processes of material creation. The authority of the Son (God #2) to administrate in the Fathers' plan is delegated to the son by the Father, but does not originate in the son. Please let me know if I misunderstand any point.

Hi clear,

Yes, that is exactly right. Jesus worked alongside his father, the Almighty Father, and it was to his son that Almighty God said "let us make man in our image" in the genesis account.

My next questions are : In Jehovahs’ Witness theology :

A) Once material creation is accomplished and Adam and Eve are placed upon the earth, what role does the Father (God #1) give to the son (God #2) from the beginning of Adam’s placement into the Garden of Eden until Adam is driven out of the Garden? (if the Witnesses believe the Son had a role)

Well Jesus is known as Michael the Arch Angel in his heavenly position. As the head of the Angles, he likely oversaw all the work the angels were assigned to carry.

The bible does tell us that the angle who was assigned to oversee Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden was actually the one who later rebelled, that is Satan the devil. His role is prophetically described by the prophet Ezekiel:

Ezekeil 28:11 And the word of Jehovah continued to occur to me, saying: 12 “Son of man, lift up a dirge concerning the king of Tyre, and you must say to him, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said:
“‘“You are sealing up a pattern, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. 13 In E′den, the garden of God, you proved to be. Every precious stone was your covering, ruby, topaz and jasper; chrys′o·lite, onyx and jade; sapphire, turquoise and emerald; and of gold was the workmanship of your settings and your sockets in you. In the day of your being created they were made ready. 14 You are the anointed cherub that is covering, and I have set you. On the holy mountain of God you proved to be. In the midst of fiery stones you walked about. 15 You were faultless in your ways from the day of your being created until unrighteousness was found in you.

B) After Adam is driven out of the Garden of Eden (after his “fall”), what Role does the Father (God #1) delegate to the Son (God #2) (i.e. during the entire “old testamental” eras)?

He was the one assigned to lead the Isrealites in the wilderness and he is Gods foremost representative and the one who delivers Gods Word....which is why he is known as 'the Word'
Exodus 23:20 “I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you on the way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him, and obey his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgressions, because my name is in him. 22 However, if you strictly obey his voice and do all that I say, I will show hostility to your enemies and oppose those who oppose you. 23 For my angel will go ahead of you
You might wonder how we know it is Jesus who was this angel... well centuries later, the prophet Daniel said that this angel was actually Micheal the Arch Angel who led the Isrealites: Daniel 12:1 “During that time Mi′cha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your (Israelites) people.
And later again, the Apostle Paul said that Jesus, the Lord, will decend from heaven with the voice of the Arch Angel
1Thess 4:; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet,...'


Jesus is also the one who was selected to provide mankinds redemption from death and sin. He was given the role as the 'seed of the woman'
Genesis 3:15 And I shall put enmity between you (Satan) and the woman (Gods heavenly organisation) and between your seed (the wicked) and her seed (the righteous). He (Jesus) will bruise you in the head and you (Satan) will bruise him in the heel.”


He is also assigned as the one who will destroy all enemies of Gods sovereignty including Satan and the demons:
Rev 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan

he is the one who will judge mankind and restore the dead to life:
John 5:25 “Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her: “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life;

So we can see that Jesus role has been integral to Gods purpose and plan since the fall of mankind. He is the one Jehovah is using the bring all things back into harmony with his perfect and righteous standards and to teach mankind how to reunite with their maker.

A final scripture to consider:
John 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’”

Jesus wants us to worship the Father..... the same God that Jesus himself worships. By following Jesus example, we can come into harmony with God and

 

[Clear]

Hi Pegg : Though I am familiar with multiple biblical manuscript variations, many of these theories are new theological interpretations that I’ve never seen in early judeo-Christian-Islamic texts. I hope you don’t mind a few more questions.


[FONT=&quot]Regarding Jehovahs’ Witness theology[/FONT][FONT=&quot] :

Clear asked : Once material creation is accomplished and Adam and Eve are placed upon the earth, what role does the Father (God #1) give to the son (God #2) from the beginning of Adam’s placement into the Garden of Eden until Adam is driven out of the Garden? (if the Witnesses believe the Son had a role) - Post #8

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Hi Pegg : you explained that in Jehovahs’ Witness interpretation and theory, God #1 (the almighty, the Father) created God # 2 (the son, Jesus) and afterwards, God #1 (the Father) gave God #2 the job of overseeing the work of the angels and that Jehovahs’ Witnesses believe that the angel Lucifer was specifically “assigned to oversee Adam and Eve”.

Given these theories :

1) In Jehovahs’ Witness’ theory; Who assigned Lucifer the job of “Overseeing” Adam and Eve in the Garden?

2) If God #1 gave God #2 the authority to “oversee” the work of angels, then do jehovahs’ witnesses believe that God #2 (the Son, Jesus’) assigned the angel Lucifer to “oversee” Adam and Even in the Garden of Eden?

3) What do Jehovahs witnesses believe Gods' assignment to Lucifer was in the Garden with Adam and Eve? (i.e. what did Lucifers’ “overseer” expect Lucifer to do with Adam and Eve in the Garden?).


[FONT=&quot]Clear asked : “ B) After Adam is driven out of the Garden of Eden (after his “fall”), what Role does the Father (God #1) delegate to the Son (God #2) (i.e. during the entire “old testamental” eras)?[/FONT]
Pegg explained : “ He was the one assigned to lead the Isrealites in the wilderness and he is Gods foremost representative and the one who delivers Gods Word....which is why he is known as 'the Word' “

4) If Jehovahs’ Witnesses recognize God #2 (Jesus, the Son) as a the God who delivered the word of God #1 to the Old Testament prophets, then do Jehovahs Witnesses believe that the “word of God” (i.e. God #2, the Son) is the God Old testament prophets are receiving the word of God and revelation from? (Or are you speaking of Jesus role as a bit more of an arbitrary and sporadic “word of God”?)

For example, In Genesis 9:1 when God “…said unto them” (i.e. Noah and his sons)…”be fruitful, and multiply…”etc., do jehovah’s Witnesses believe God #1 or God #2 is speaking to Noah and his sons?

In Genesis chapt 12 when “the Lord had spoken unto “ Abraham do the Jehovahs witnesses interpret this to be God #1 or God #2 speaking to Abraham?

Who do the Jehovahs’ Witnesses interpret the God who tells Abraham to sacrifice his son to be; God # 1 or God #2?

5) If Jehovahs’ Witnesses believe it is mainly God #1 speaking to prophets, can you give me a few examples of when God #2 is speaking and delivering the word of God to prophets and when God #1 is speaking to prophets?



Pegg explained regarding Jehovahs’ Witness theology that : “ Jesus is also the one who was selected to provide mankinds redemption from death and sin. He was given the role as the 'seed of the woman'

6) Do the Jehovahs’ Witnesses have a theory as to specifically how the death of God #2 (the Son) relieves individuals of the burden and responsibilities for their sins?

Thanks again for the information

Clear
ειτωακω

 

[Pegg]

Hi Pegg : Though I am familiar with multiple biblical manuscript variations, many of these theories are new theological interpretations that I’ve never seen in early judeo-Christian-Islamic texts. I hope you don’t mind a few more questions.


[FONT=&quot]Regarding Jehovahs’ Witness theology[/FONT][FONT=&quot] :

Clear asked : Once material creation is accomplished and Adam and Eve are placed upon the earth, what role does the Father (God #1) give to the son (God #2) from the beginning of Adam’s placement into the Garden of Eden until Adam is driven out of the Garden? (if the Witnesses believe the Son had a role) - Post #8

[/FONT]
Hi Pegg : you explained that in Jehovahs’ Witness interpretation and theory, God #1 (the almighty, the Father) created God # 2 (the son, Jesus) and afterwards, God #1 (the Father) gave God #2 the job of overseeing the work of the angels and that Jehovahs’ Witnesses believe that the angel Lucifer was specifically “assigned to oversee Adam and Eve”.

Given these theories :

1) In Jehovahs’ Witness’ theory; Who assigned Lucifer the job of “Overseeing” Adam and Eve in the Garden?

As Jehovah is the ultimate authority, Jesus works under his direction just as a manager works under the direction of a CEO.

The CEO informs the manager of what needs to happen and it is the manager who then directs the employees.

Jesus works under Jehovahs direction in the same way. Jehovah has delegated responsibility to his Son, but the Son does not work independently of the Father... Christ stated this truth about his position


John 5:19 Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner.

John 5:30 I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.

2) If God #1 gave God #2 the authority to “oversee” the work of angels, then do jehovahs’ witnesses believe that God #2 (the Son, Jesus’) assigned the angel Lucifer to “oversee” Adam and Even in the Garden of Eden?

the bible doesnt specifically say, so im not sure on that. I guess if we take the illustration of the CEO and Manager, it is the CEO who makes the decisions and the Manager who carries them out. And if Jesus said he does nothing of his 'own initiative' then i would lean toward the conclusion that it is God himself who delegates angels to their respective roles.


Btw, we dont call Satan by the name 'lucifer' for that is not his actual name. The word Lucifer is the translation of the Hebrew word heh·lel′ meaning “shining one.”
Heh·lel′ is not a name or a title, its just a term describing the boastful position taken by Babylon’s dynasty of kings of the line of Nebuchadnezzar. I dont know who began the teaching that it was Satans name but it just goes to show that you can't trust the teachings which come from the time of the Apostasy.

3) What do Jehovahs witnesses believe Gods' assignment to Lucifer was in the Garden with Adam and Eve? (i.e. what did Lucifers’ “overseer” expect Lucifer to do with Adam and Eve in the Garden?).

The position of Satan in God’s original organization is not precisely known....and thats not unusual because it does not tell us the roles of any angel except for Jesus.
Many Bible students have understood the prophecy of Ezekiel 28:11-19 regarding the king of ancient Tyre to apply also to Satan the Devil, and hence they reason that the self-made Devil was originally a “cherub” which is an angel of high rank in Gods service... and if so, that would explain why he was so close to Adam and Eve early in their creation.

But our 'Insight on the Scriptures' states the following about Satan:

Origin.
The Scriptures indicate that the creature known as Satan did not always have that name. Rather, this descriptive name was given to him because of his taking a course of opposition and resistance to God. ...
So, from a righteous, perfect start, this spirit person deviated into sin and degradation. The process bringing this about is described by James when he writes: “Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn, sin, when it has been accomplished, brings forth death.” (Jas 1:14,*15)
In the course that Satan took, there seems to be, in some respects, a parallel with that of the king of Tyre as described in Ezekiel 28:11-19.—See PERFECTION (The first sinner and the king of Tyre).

4) If Jehovahs’ Witnesses recognize God #2 (Jesus, the Son) as a the God who delivered the word of God #1 to the Old Testament prophets, then do Jehovahs Witnesses believe that the “word of God” (i.e. God #2, the Son) is the God Old testament prophets are receiving the word of God and revelation from? (Or are you speaking of Jesus role as a bit more of an arbitrary and sporadic “word of God”?)

Here is our official teaching taken from our 'Insight on the Scriptures'

Why called “the Word.”
The name (or, perhaps, title) “the Word” (Joh 1:1) apparently identifies the function that God’s firstborn Son performed after other intelligent creatures were formed.
A similar expression is found at Exodus 4:16, where Jehovah says to Moses concerning his brother Aaron: “And he must speak for you to the people; and it must occur that he will serve as a mouth to you, and you will serve as God to him.”

As spokesman for God’s chief representative on earth, Aaron served as “a mouth” for Moses. Likewise with the Word, or Logos, who became Jesus Christ.

Jehovah evidently used his Son to convey information and instructions to others of his family of spirit sons, even as he used that Son to deliver his message to humans on earth. Showing that he was God’s Word, or Spokesman, Jesus said to his Jewish listeners:
“What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me. If anyone desires to do His will, he will know concerning the teaching whether it is from God or I speak of my own originality.”—Joh 7:16,*17; compare Joh 12:50; 18:37.

For example, In Genesis 9:1 when God “…said unto them” (i.e. Noah and his sons)…”be fruitful, and multiply…”etc., do jehovah’s Witnesses believe God #1 or God #2 is speaking to Noah and his sons?

it may have been Jesus, or perhaps another angel, who spoke to Noah and his sons. There are many accounts where God speaks through his angelic representatives... the foremost is Jesus Christ, but God has also used other Angels to deliver messages such as when Gabriel delivered the message to Mary about the birth of Jesus.

In Genesis chapt 12 when “the Lord had spoken unto “ Abraham do the Jehovahs witnesses interpret this to be God #1 or God #2 speaking to Abraham?

Again, it is one of Gods (#1) representatives speaking. It could be Jesus or another angel. God did not directly speak to any individual ever... he always used one of his angels

John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him


Your next two questions are in the next post....

 

[Pegg]

Who do the Jehovahs’ Witnesses interpret the God who tells Abraham to sacrifice his son to be; God # 1 or God #2?

5) If Jehovahs’ Witnesses believe it is mainly God #1 speaking to prophets, can you give me a few examples of when God #2 is speaking and delivering the word of God to prophets and when God #1 is speaking to prophets?

The account in the bible actually says that it was an angel who was speaking to Abraham in that account: Notice the Angels words...

Genesis 22:9 Finally they reached the place that the true God had indicated to him, and Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac hand and foot and put him on the altar on top of the wood. 10 Then Abraham reached out his hand and took the knife to kill his son. 11 But Jehovah’s angel called to him from the heavens and said: “Abraham, Abraham!” to which he answered: “Here I am!” 12 Then he said: “Do not harm the boy, and do not do anything at all to him, for now I do know that you are God-fearing because you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me.”
13 At that Abraham looked up, and there just beyond him was a ram caught by its horns in a thicket. So Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering in place of his son. 14 And Abraham named that place Je·ho′vah-ji′reh. This is why it is still said today: “In the mountain of Jehovah it will be provided.”
15 And Jehovah’s angel called to Abraham a second time from the heavens, 16 saying: “‘By myself I swear,’ declares Jehovah, ‘that because you have done this and you have not withheld your son, your only one, 17 I will surely bless you and I will surely multiply your offspring like the stars of the heavens and like the grains of sand on the seashore, and your offspring will take possession of the gate of his enemies.

Do you notice that the angles speak as if it is Jehovah (God #1) himself speaking?
This shows us that it would not be correct to conclude that God himself is the one speaking or appearing to mankind directly when we read such accounts...because clearly that is not the case. And it ties in with other scriptures such as Exodus 33:20 But he added: “You cannot see my face, for no man can see me and live.”

6) Do the Jehovahs’ Witnesses have a theory as to specifically how the death of God #2 (the Son) relieves individuals of the burden and responsibilities for their sins?

Well the sacrifice of Jesus does not relieve anyone from the responsibility of their sins. The bible is very clear that we are still held accountable for our sins ie Heb 10:26 For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, 27 but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgement

What Jesus sacrifice has provided mankind with is a 'ransom' which is a price paid to buy back or to bring about release from some obligation or undesirable circumstance. Mankind is in an undesirable circumstance...we have been born to a sinful parent and therefore we inherited sin and death from him. We are not being punished with death for 'his' sin though... we are punished with death for our own sins which we all commit...and we commit them because we are born with sinful inclinations pass onto us through our sinful first father. (much like a genetic trait passed on from parents to children)

God assures us that we can get out of this situation through the Ransom offered by Christ. Christs sacrifice has paid a price for us... the price we are required to pay for sin is death. Jesus has graciously paid that price for us so that we can be set free from such a fate....and if we choose to avail ourselves of it, God will remove death from us so that mankind can live forever as they were intended to live.

 

[Imaginary_Friends]

[FONT=&quot]Hi :
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I recently bought a NW Translation from a used bookstore recently for a very superficial look at the translation and I was impressed that the NWT correctly excluded the johannine comma and the NWT placed the woman caught in adultery in a second tier position (also correct) and the NWT translation also, impressively, uses the more likely reading for John 1:18.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The NWT reads : “18 “No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him.”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][/FONT]I am impressed with this attempt [FONT=&quot]to correct this text[/FONT]. However, the correction itsel[FONT=&quot]f[/FONT] left me wondering how this text is seen inside the Jehovahs' Witness view on the trinity (that I admit that I know very little about).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1) Who do Jehovah’s witnesses believe that the text “the only-begotten god who is the bosom of the Father” is referring to? (I am asking from the position of agreement with the J. Witness position that the three individuals of the modern trinity were not the same individuals in early Judeo-Christian tradition. )
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2) Do the Jehovahs’ Witnesses have any firm doctrine on when this God was “begotten” and

[FONT=&quot]3) W[/FONT]hat does it mean in Jehovah[FONT=&quot]s' Witness theology [/FONT]for this God to become “begotten”?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Thank you in advance for any information on this specific point.
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Clear
[/FONT]

Didn't Jacob see God?

What has puzzled me when I was a Catholic was how can you discern between a begotten son and a non-begotten son if neither are the result of direct reproduction.

The bible refers to angels as sons of God. If Jesus isn't God, how can you differentiate between a begotten son and a non-begotten if neither are the result of reproduction and both are the result of instant creation?

 

[Clear]

Hi Imaginary Friends :

I think it is quite interesting that so many different Christian movements possess so many different theories regarding even the most basic of issues regarding God; his son; their relationship to ancient prophets, etc. based on similar textual descriptions. I have decided that, to a certain extent, the mental context of the person and their personality often affects theology more than the religious text in terms of how one interprets and organizes religious principles into a system of beliefs.

As a current example, it is interesting to see how the Jehovahs Witnesses interpret and organize data into their own theory of events and history compared to early historical Christian movements and their interpretations.

Imaginary Friends said : “ What has puzzled me when I was a Catholic was how can you discern between a begotten son and a non-begotten son if neither are the result of direct reproduction. “

A better defining of relationship within their theory was partly the purpose of my last questions to pegg in asking for multiple examples of interactions of their God #1 and their God #2 with mankind during old testament period. If the Jehovahs’ Witnesses theorize that God #1 created a second God #2 then how do they distinguish discretely and accurately between the interactions both Gods have with mankind.

While Peggs’ “CEO and manager” example is wonderful as a base concept; it does not keep anyone (even the JW themselves) from confusing specific interactions and how these interactions define and form a context for the emerging larger specific roles of God #1 and God #2 in specific ways.

Language itself isn’t sufficiently clarifying. For example, the greek word “αγγελλος” (eng. "angel") simply means “messenger”. It means messenger whether one is talking about a man bringing a message from another man, or a man sent from God (such as a prophet) or a divine being sent from God, and, as we have seen, is used by the Jehovahs’ Witness to describe a God himself (God #2 in this case) in one of his roles.

If in Jehovahs Witness theory, God #1 creates another God (#2) who then is also a “messenger” then it makes sense that a hypothetical God #2 is also an “angel” in their role as a messenger. If, as in early Christian theory, the son knows the Fathers will and shares common purposes and goals, then the Son may often declare the Fathers’ will using his own judgment without needing specific and ongoing guidance. They are "one" and unified in purposes and in certain other characteristics.

While all Gods may be referred to as “angels” to the extent that they are delivering a message, the early Christian descriptions define this specific line of demarcation between the two classes (angels and gods) more clearly in the early Christian model than in the Jehovahs Witness model (at least so far it appears to until we get more and better information regarding the Jehovahs’ Witness’ model&#8230

Texts often do not sufficiently clarify. This is partly due to the many, many, different interpretations the texts are subject to and the different translations of the text. I notice the multiple small differences in translation between, for example, Rashi in Hebrew and the Jewish Greek of 300 b.c. and the relatively new New World translation and their handling of Peggs examples from ezekiel. The NWT tenses often disagree, words and concepts are added that are in neither hebrew or Greek, nouns are made into verbs, etc. Though no translator or group that creates a bible will translate the same as another, the differences are sometimes major and the minor changes add up in a short time to an entirely different context and meaning. Compare, for example, the Jewish version of Rashi of Ezekiel, to Brentons Greek, to the NWT. They are quite different bibles.

Timelines also do not clarify sufficiently. For example, in early Christian worldview, the arch-angel Lucifer had already had his “war in heaven” and had been cast out into the earth by the time Adam arrived in the Garden. However, in Jehovahs Witness theory, (If I understand Pegg correctly&#8230 it seems to describe an as-yet-unfallen Lucifer angel who is still in the good graces of God when Adam is introduced into the Garden of Eden and who is trusted with some task of “over seeing” Adam and Eve. Even basic timelines and contexts in basic histories differ between Christian movements so much that the context and dynamics of the fall of mankind are quite different between the different Christian movements.

It is such context and roles that I was trying to clarify in the Jehovah’s Witness theory by asking which God “assigned” Lucifer to “oversee Adam and Eve” in the Garden and what Lucifer’s job was supposed to be. To announce that God assigned Lucifer to “oversee” Adam and Eve, but to know neither which God did this, nor what the God instructed Lucifer to do simply adds confusing elements to an, as yet, unformed theory.


So Pegg, if, as you explained, that, it is not clear in Jehovahs’ Witness theory which God (God #1 or God #2) assigned Lucifer to “oversee” Adam and Eve, and since it according to Jehovah Witness Theory, one of these God's assigned Lucifer to "oversee" Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, does the Jehovahs’ Witness theory have any idea what Lucifer was actually assigned to do in the Garden of Eden as an "overseer"?

When you say “ The position of Satan in God’s original organization is not precisely known. “ are you saying that you theorize that God wanted Lucifer to “oversee” Adam and Eve, but are not sure what “oversee” means in this case?

Secondly, I am merely assuming from the context of your comments that you believe Lucifer was not yet a fallen angel and enemy to God at the time of Adam and Eves’ introduction into the garden of eden but that, in Jehovahs Witness theory, this fall took place after Adam and Eves’ eating of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. Is this correct or am I misunderstanding your description and time line?

Thirdly : Imaginary Friends thoughts returned me to another thought I had when you described the Jehovahs Witness position that God #1 (the Almighty) created God #2 (the son). Do Jehovahs Witnesses use the theory of ex-nihilo creation regarding this second God and of earth and other material objects? That is, do Jehovahs Witnesses believe God #1 created God #2 out of “nothing” or out of some pre-existing substance?

Thanks again for the information Pegg.

Clear
εισιειω

 

[Pegg]

It is such context and roles that I was trying to clarify in the Jehovah’s Witness theory by asking which God “assigned” Lucifer to “oversee Adam and Eve” in the Garden and what Lucifer’s job was supposed to be. To announce that God assigned Lucifer to “oversee” Adam and Eve, but to know neither which God did this, nor what the God instructed Lucifer to do simply adds confusing elements to an, as yet, unformed theory.

It doesnt have to be confusing really. Jesus himself said that he does nothing of his own initiative...so it is Jehovah God who gives all orders and Jesus who delivers those orders.

I dont find it confusing at all.

So Pegg, if, as you explained, that, it is not clear in Jehovahs’ Witness theory which God (God #1 or God #2) assigned Lucifer to “oversee” Adam and Eve, and since it according to Jehovah Witness Theory, one of these God's assigned Lucifer to "oversee" Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, does the Jehovahs’ Witness theory have any idea what Lucifer was actually assigned to do in the Garden of Eden as an "overseer"?

The bible does not specifically say what his role was. So it would be wrong of us to try and create a theory for which there is no direct revelation given.

The bible says he was a 'cherub'
That is a high ranking angel. And if the prophetic description of the King of Tyre summarises Satan before his fall as many think may be the case, then we can conclude that Satan held a position of authority within the Garden of Eden.

When you say “ The position of Satan in God’s original organization is not precisely known. “ are you saying that you theorize that God wanted Lucifer to “oversee” Adam and Eve, but are not sure what “oversee” means in this case?

It is believed that he was in the Garden of Eden 'overseeing' which basically means 'supervising' Adam and Eve. The human couple had been given an assignment to fill the earth and subdue it. It would not be logical to believe that God would leave them entirely without supervision of some kind. But as the bible does not specifically tell us what role Satan played, we can only imagine and speculate. All we know for sure is that he was assigned to the Garden of Eden just as other angels were assigned to other things.

But this is why we are not dogmatic about it. If new understanding comes to light, we will be sure to put it in the watchtower, but at this point in time, all we know is that he was assigned to the garden of eden.

Secondly, I am merely assuming from the context of your comments that you believe Lucifer was not yet a fallen angel and enemy to God at the time of Adam and Eves’ introduction into the garden of eden but that, in Jehovahs Witness theory, this fall took place after Adam and Eves’ eating of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil. Is this correct or am I misunderstanding your description and time line?

He would have developed a bad desire before he tempted them... but the act of tricking Eve into eating the fruit was his first actual act of rebellion against God. Prior to this, he had not committed any wrong. It would be similar to someone who is planning a murder... he is not a murderer until he has committed the act.

Thirdly : Imaginary Friends thoughts returned me to another thought I had when you described the Jehovahs Witness position that God #1 (the Almighty) created God #2 (the son). Do Jehovahs Witnesses use the theory of ex-nihilo creation regarding this second God and of earth and other material objects? That is, do Jehovahs Witnesses believe God #1 created God #2 out of “nothing” or out of some pre-existing substance?

God is a spirit and therefore has no physical form. I know Mormons believe God has a body of flesh and blood, but our view is different. The bible says God is a 'spirit' and in the hebrew language 'spirit' is from Ruach meaning breath/blow/wind... it is not made of physical particles so Jesus is not made out of any pre-existing substance. Nor are any of the angelic sons....they too are gods made from an immaterial force.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Hi Clear,

We believe this is a reference to Jesus Christ.



By reading Vs 1 of John 1, we can see that John says that Jesus (the Word) comes into existence "In the beginning"

In the beginning (or source) was the Word (logos). It is 'in' the beginning, not necessarily 'made' in the beginning.

This beginning means the beginning of Gods creative works. In other words, Christ Jesus was the very first intelligent being created by God. For this reason, we do not believe in the trinity doctrine... we dont believe God and Jesus are the same person. Jesus is an individual created by God before all other things.

I have a question. Why? Why did he create him? From what? How?

Obviously we cannot put a time to this 'beginning'... it simply cannot be known unless Jesus or God himself tells us how old Jesus Christ actually is. But the bible informs us that he is older then the earth and universe.

Prov 8:22  Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth

So Christ is the 'beginning' of Gods creative works and he worked under Gods instruction in the creation of all other things as the Apostle Paul explains in Colossians 1:15  He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, ... All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist,

It has to be mentioned that the word 'other' is not in scripture but is added into your Bible.
One other thing, if he is the 'Image', then does that not make him God? What is he the Image of?

It is for this reason that Christ is the 'only begotten' It literally means that he is the only living being whom God directly created. All other living beings came into existence through Christ Jesus.

To be 'only begotten' means to be a single one of a kind. For example, if you are an 'only child' it means your parents only had one child, you.
Likewise, Jesus is the only one who God personally created/begot. Thereafter, God instructed Jesus to create other living beings ie, angles, then the physical universe and all life on earth including man.

Yet we can see other things born. So perhaps it is saying that it is the only thing that the 'Father' bore. Which would mean all other things come through the Mother.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Yes, Jesus is most certainly a god according to scripture and if we look at what the term 'god' actually means in hebrew, ʼEl, its likely meaning is “Mighty One; Strong One.”

The word 'El is not exclusively used in reference to Jehovah, but its also the word used as a title for other gods, and even to men.

We also see that the prophets applied the term god to the one who would come as the savior of the world, ie
at Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called ʼEl Gib·bohr′, meaning in hebrew, “Mighty God”

But there is one expression which is never applied to anyone except Jehovah... that hebrew expression is ʼEl Shad·dai′ this is 'God Almighty'
This expression is only used when addressing YHWH Yahweh or Jehovah in the hebrew scriptures. So while it is quite proper to view Jesus as a god, we do not viewed him to be the Almighty... hence his position as a god is relative to Jehovah who created him.

So how do you deal with the idea that you now have many gods, or a God and a god, considering there is supposed to be only One?

 

[Robert.Evans]

Hi Clear,

Yes that is correct.

Jesus is a created being. At one time he did not exist...the only existing being was God the Almighty Father. But at some point in the distant past, he chose to begin his creation and the very first of his creations was a being like himself made in his image and in his likeness. That person was Jesus and in his pre-human form he was also the chief of all the angels...the bible calls him Michael the Arch Angel.

So how do you deal with foregiveness/salvation? It seems your God is making someone else take the blame.
What was God doing before he created the son? How did he exist? Was he bored?

And yes, Jesus is subject to God Almighty (Jehovah) as we can see from the scriptures:

Agreed. He who wishes to be greatest must make himself least.

1 Cor 15:24  Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing. 27 For God “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that this does not include the One who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.

Good. But how does that fit with my above quote?

We know that Jesus holds all authority in heaven and on earth... but its only for a limited time. Once the completion of Gods purpose is fulfilled and Christ has fulfilled his assigned role, he will then subject himself to God Almighty so that 'God may be all things to everyone' .

Why?

So this scripture really shows us that Christs authority is given to him for a set time and set purpose. And once Jesus submits himself to God, I have to wonder who the trinitarians will subject themselves to because right now they really have no idea who the Father is.... to them, Jesus is God.

But is he not called God in John 20, and Hebrews 1? and alluded to in others, I and the Father are one? How do we take this? How can he be seen as One if he is not? And how is someone, One, unless they are the same? How does he have the power to forgive unless he is God? Did they not even ask that in the gospels? There appears to be many little problems still to understand.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Clear asked : “ So, to make sure that I understand correctly :
1) Jehovahs’ Witnesses believe that the Lord God (i.e., God “#1”, The Father; the God Almighty, etc.) is one God and that the pre-creation Jesus is a second god (i.e. God #2, the Son, the lessor god).
And, if I am correct;
2) Jehovahs' Witnesses believe that God #1 (i.e. the Lord God) directs god #2 (pre-creation Jesus) and god #2 (pre-creation Jesus) does not direct God #1 (i.e. the Lord God).

Is this correct or am I misunderstanding this basic relationship according to Jehovahs’ Witness theology? Again, thanks for the explanation and information.“

Pegg said : “ Yes that is correct.“


Thank you for the information Pegg

My current understanding regarding Jehovahs’ Witness theology is :

The almighty Father (God #1) , creates the Son (God #2)
Before the world is created, God #1 (the God “almighty”, the “Father”, etc.) created God #2 (a lessor God – i.e. not “almighty”; the “Son” of God) who later entered the world as Jesus Christ described in the New Testament.

The almighty Father (God #1) delegates tasks and authority to the Son (God #2)
The almighty Father (God #1), assigns the Son (God #2) to administrate and accomplish most of the processes of material creation. The authority of the Son (God #2) to administrate in the Fathers' plan is delegated to the son by the Father, but does not originate in the son. Please let me know if I misunderstand any point.



My next questions are : In Jehovahs’ Witness theology :

A) Once material creation is accomplished and Adam and Eve are placed upon the earth, what role does the Father (God #1) give to the son (God #2) from the beginning of Adam’s placement into the Garden of Eden until Adam is driven out of the Garden? (if the Witnesses believe the Son had a role)

B) After Adam is driven out of the Garden of Eden (after his “fall”), what Role does the Father (God #1) delegate to the Son (God #2) (i.e. during the entire “old testamental” eras)?

Thank you for your clear and concise answers Pegg, I did not know much of this regarding Jehovahs’ Witness theology.


Clear
νεακω

They don't see it as God one and God two. That is two thirds of a trinity. They see it as God and god.

 

[Katzpur]

I know Mormons believe God has a body of flesh and blood, but our view is different.

Flesh and bone. I've explained the difference before, but since this is the JW DIR, I'll leave it at that.

 

[Clear]

1) Katzpur : Hi, I also saw the error in the claim to “know” what the LDS believe, followed by the inaccurate description. If we get deeper into strawmen or cannot abandon inaccuracies, I’ll abandon the thread.

2) In response to Peggs claim that : “By reading Vs 1 of John 1, we can see that John says that Jesus (the Word) comes into existence "In the beginning"”

Robert.Evans clarifies : “In the beginning (or source) was the Word (logos). It is 'in' the beginning, not necessarily 'made' in the beginning. “

Hi Robert.Evans, I, as well, have noted and pointed out previously that there is NO verb for "create", or for "coming into existence" or even an indication in John 1:1 that indicates a “coming into existence” of anything.

I very much agree with you that the claim that John 1:1 meant Jesus "comes into existence” is simply inaccurate and illogical and such interpretations creates inaccuracies and illogic inside theological theories.


3) Regarding the changes in text to create a different theology.

Robert.Evans said : “It has to be mentioned that the word 'other' is not in scripture but is added into your Bible. “

Like you have pointed out, there are some unusual additions, deletions and changes to the early biblical text in the NWT, that cause one to ask why such changes were made.

I think that, like Luther, who changes the text in his first bible to reflect and support his theology, such changes to original biblical manuscript text must represent and be driven by the theology of the translators. In the same way, New Testament biblical manuscripts are very different than the final product represented in the New World Translation. I very much like the corrections of some known errors, but have felt that there are so many other errors introduced into the text that I would have rather kept the known errors rather than have so many small and accumulating errors introduced to the text.


4) Robert.Evans said : “They don't see it as God one and God two. That is two thirds of a trinity. They see it as God and god.“

I’m not sure of that I understand the difference you are pointing out. I was referring to Peggs base statement that Jehovahs Witnesses believe that the first God in existence (i.e. God #1, the almighty) created a second God (i.e. God #2 – NOT almighty) who is a “lessor” God in certain characteristics.

I think Pegg made it clear that the two are not equal in their characteristics (i.e. two different individuals). Thus, it is not a strict polytheism (multiple Gods that are equal) Pegg is describing, but rather a henotheism (multiple Gods of which ONE is sovereign and worthy of highest worship). Though I am agreed with you that it is obvious that John 1:1 does NOT say what she claimed, I think her model of base relationship between these two individuals has some similarty to early Judeo-Christian textual descriptions in the specific description of the pre-creation Jesus as a mediator, chosen before creation to accomplish redemption of mankind, and a divine being in his own right.



5) Pegg :

The reason I wanted more information regarding the Jehovahs Witness theory of WHEN the arch angel Lucifer “fell” from heaven and what sort of purpose the Jehovahs Witnesses theorize the devil was given in the Garden inside their theology is that it is such an unusual departure of basic theology from the early Christian textual traditions that I had not expected this unusual twist.

As Robert.Evans and I have both pointed out, your use of John 1:1 to demonstrate the “creation” of a second God, "the word", is incorrect. “εν αρχη ην ο λογος, και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον, και θεος ην ο λογος.” (In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was a god&#8221 does NOT indicate a creation of "the word", but merely indicates "the word" was “with God” at that point in time. Also, there are NO significant variants of this in any critical text or translators text (e.g. GNT-4, NA criticals, etc.) which support your claim, but instead, indicate you point is an error.

In a similar, strange use of text, Ezekiel 28 does not indicate Lucifer was “assigned to oversee” Adam and Eve placed in the Garden of Eden. Your various attempts at such unusual uses of the actual text were interesting in that I thought they might show how and why the Jehovahs Witnesses depart so drastically from early Christian worldviews on these traditions.

While I honestly don’t have much interest in the modern theory, I am interested in WHY and HOW such unusual theology arises from the biblical text and the sort of theological mechanisms by which such theology continues.

The amount of early textual material from all three major Abrahamic sources demonstrate that the original doctrine was that 1) Lucifer became an enemy to God before Adam was placed into the Garden of Eden and 2) This enemy of God, Lucifer was NOT assigned by a God to be an “overseer” or “helpful assistant” of any sort to Adam and Eve in the Garden.

The use of early Judeo-Christian texts, diaries, synagogal prayers, lectionaries, sacred texts, and other early literature gives us a way to observe and measure in some objective way, the changes that occur in Christianity over long periods of time. In all early literature, none of the three Abrahamic traditions interpret these two basic issues as the Jehovahs Witnesses do. Instead, in rare agreement, Early Jewish, Christian and Islamic textual traditions describe the fall of Lucifer BEFORE Adam is placed in the Garden and that he is already an enemy to God when Adam arrives in the Garden of Eden. This is why it is so very interesting to consider why and how the Jehovahs Witnesses created and adopted new theological models on these points. If one can understand how such changes in theology occur, one might be able to look back in hind sight and see if such mechanisms were at work all along in multiple Christian movements and contributed to doctrinal evolution and "drift" in other movements as well.

A) Since the early biblical and other textual witnesses do not support these two specific principles, where then do these theories come from inside jehovahs’ witness theology?

B) Who was the first person in the Jehovahs Witness movement to first theorize Lucifer falling after Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden and who was the first to theorize that the Devil was given the “assignment” to watch over Adam and Eve in the Garden of eden? (was it Charles Russell or J. Rutherford or someone else? - did it come with millerite theology?)

C) How does this person describe their method of generating these two specific theories?

If this line of questioning is becoming uncomfortable or improper, please let me know and I’ll abandon this line of questioning. Thanks in advance for the information Pegg.

Clear
τωτωφυω