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The one true faith!

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by jewscout, Dec 29, 2004.

  1. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    Lets reverse this statement.

    Hitler by simply being a human being who is thinking thier own thoughts makes him great. You can do the same with Stalin Or Osama Bin Ladan.


    No I don't I honestly do not want my interpretation I want the truth where ever it leads, If it is proven that God does not exsist then I would become an athiest, if Buddism shows itself to be the right path then I will follow it.

    "other truths" is the same thing as relativism would you agree to that?
     
  2. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    A good point. However, in the original context, it was being used in contrast with mocking a person for saying that they would "follow my own initiative". (If you weren't mocking the person, then I would have used a different phrase than "what makes you so great?") The moment a persons "own initiative" begins interfereing with another persons, then it would logically follow that it becomes of public concern.

    A very admirable quality, though please remember that the only thing that people here at RF have is what you have posted. You seem to be willing to present your side of matters, but you do not always seem willing to listen. This may just be the perception that I've gotten, and I do apologize if it is untrue.

    Honestly, I don't know. (If there's a school for relativists, no one's showed me it, and (again) it's not as if it's my religion.) The way I said it probably was relativist, that simply being who I am, and if that offended, I'm sorry. My intent was not that you should think of other religions or faiths as being inherently equal to your own, but that perhaps considering that those following them believe them to be would probably save you some time and energy.
     
  3. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    I would say there is one true faith, but at the same time, their isn't. It's hard to grasp the meanings of these words. Our perceptions are unique as our fingerprints, and religion is as diverse as the people who are religious. In reality, we all percieve truth differently, and although we can agree on much, no two perceptions are ever the same. We are confined by the limitations of our mind, and what exists outside the mind does not exist because it cannot be percieved. No human can accuse another of being ignorant and exclude him or herself, because we are all ignorant in one way or another. Neither can someone claim that they are aware of all possible truths, because we are all limited. Truth is always changing, always evolving, we forever embrace the truth, but All truth can never be embraced. To seek truth is an endless journey which has no end, but an endless sea of infinite beginnings.
     
  4. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    Theres that word agian: Mock. Now I don't understand this, Mock is something I would never want to do. if somebody wants to follow there own initiative its fine with me but what I'm saying is that Following ones own initiative is not the truth.

    When I say "what makes you so great" I don't mean to mock anybody or anything. Understand that I am asking a question. I ask alot of questions because it forces the questioner to open up into his own assumptions which is what I am trying to get at. The other reason is because my master almost always answered a question with another question, and I will follow my masters example.

    Like I said before "nobody cares about me" They don't care because I don't like 'beating around the bush' or Exchanging complementaries with people I am debating because they get in the way of the underlying arguments which I with the put forward. Furhtermore I am willing to listen because I respond to other posts don't I?

    relativism is more of a philiosophy then a religion any book on philiosophy could give you names of Good philiosophers to read about it.

    If you say your a relatvisit that doesn't offend me at all. you can be a relatvist but you will see that logicaly it doesn't make good sense at all.

    My intent was not that you should think of other religions or faiths as being inherently equal to your own, but that perhaps considering that those following them believe them to be would probably save you some time and energy.[/QUOTE]
     
  5. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    isn't that a countradiction?

    exactly which is why we shouldn't trust our mind fully.

    God is outside the mind. However God understands this so he communicates to us thru the bible.

    Amen

    Amen

    Think about this statement logically. If Truth is always changing then why should I take your statements as true?
     
  6. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    Yes it is, but like I said after that sentence, it's a hard concept to understand. God is truth, but God cannot be fully grasped. Although we are aware of God, and he makes himself known through His word, God exists outside the human mind and therefore cannot fully be percieved. He is ever incomprehensible. We simply know Him as the Father.

    Yes, we can never trust our own minds fully due to our limitations. Nothing is ever as it seems, and what if all that you deemed to be truth is just an illusion? Your perception is your ultimate reality. However your reality is not my reality

    You are trying to be politically correct. Forget politics, you know the meaning to this sentence already.

    Let me give you an analogy. Say that a child percieves the red hot coils on a burning stove as "pleasing to the eye". However this child has never encountered anything like that before. So truth here, is that this red coil is harmless. The child then touches the coil out of curiousity, and gets burned, and by this painful experience the child learns never to touch it again. So here, truth changes, because the value placed on this red coil changes from harmless to harmful.

    So the fact is, is that truth is always changing, but it is our learning experiences that changes truth. therefore, because of our limitations, All truths can never be grasped, but the journey for truth is one without an end, but is an endless sea of new beginnings.

    Therefore, there is All truth some of which can be grasped, and yet there can never be one true faith, because truth is forever changing and evolving, and no two persons percieve truth alike.

    It was a popular belief that the earth was flat, however did that turn out to be true?

    If we were not bound by our limitations, then there could be one true faith because we could grasp ALL truth.

    True condemnation is the conformity to ignorance, and by believing in "one true faith", we limit ourselves to one perspective. To gain truth one must not limit themselves, but examine everything from all sides. To see only one side of a six sided square is condemnation, or to see the shadow and not the object casting the shadow is condemnation. We are limited, but we limit ourselves even further by believing in "one true faith" and deeming all others as having no truth. My wisdom is from grasping all faiths and examining the square from all sides, I do not limit myself. Although I am very opinionated and stronly voice my opinions, I am very open to the fact that I may be entirely wrong. It is the ego that causes this downfall and binds us in ignorance (I'm write and you're wrong).

    Take my analogy about the child. What if your one true faith is that the red coils were harmless, and yet all other faiths stated that they were harmful? But if you listen only to your opinion and dismiss all others, you will get burned.

    Don't limit yourself, examine from all sides. Most likely someone who claims that their faith is the one true faith has never studied any faiths outside their own.
     
  7. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    I'm not saying i'm greater or superior to any man, and certainly not over G-d. chuck do you just sit there when your hungry and wait for food to appear before you? Do you let your car's transmission go out, waiting for an angel to magically fix it? Do you sit back as the Tsunami victims suffer and just pray that something good will happen?

    I think HaShem wants us to make choices to better our lives and the lives of those around us. If i'm hungry i get some food. My car is messed up, i take it to my mechanic. When i see what has happened in South East Asia i donate to Magen David Adom, an israeli based charity which has donated thousands of dollars to the tsunami effort.

    Do i pray before i eat, thanking HaShem for the food of the earth? Yes. Do i thank Him when i get my car back and it runs well again? Yes. And do i pray for the victims of this horrible disaster? You damn skippy!

    The point is to not just pray, but to be active and do something about the things you see in your world. That's what i'm talking about chuck.
     
  8. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    Whose scripture? not jewish scripture.





    I wanted opinions on my use of that particular metaphor for this discussion.
     
  9. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    Then why follow your own iniative if its not greater then any other?

    you have stumbled on a very good issue that I have with my fellow theists. You see I don't just sit and pray I actually do things to help those I can I go out into the world and I teach them. I can't stand it when we pray in school its a waste of time in most respects.
     
  10. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    The jews still believe in the first five books of Moses don't they? the writings? (by which I mean the prophets)


    Just understand where I'm coming from, that I believe in absolute truth and I am willing to defend it theologically and philosophically at any time and this website is a wonderful place to do it.
     
  11. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    couldn't agree more, Sunstone; I belive that the purpose of life is for each one of us to find his own way to the ultimate salvation; if there really was only one path, it would be boring!!!!!!!!!!!
     
  12. chuck010342

    chuck010342 Active Member

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    if your statements have countradictions then your being illogical.

    your a mystic so be very careful when you say WE. I see God as a "holy father" if you want to get specific. I agree with the rest of your statement.

    Which is where faith comes into play.

    I disagree with you here, To use an anology. The cave man discovered this. FIRE HOT. Fire burns and it hurts that is as it seems.

    You have been watching the matrix way to much :). I would do nothing different then what I do now.

    we have the same reality Fire is hot ice is cold and so on.

    No I'm not what I'm doing is making a point here. it is my philosophy that I look down on political correctness. An indian is an indian and so forth. And I am using logic to show you what I mean.

    Thats true but the indiciation of pain is always there no matter who touches the stove. Pain is always the result- that is constat.

    No it isn't Fire is hot. I bang my head against a wall it hurts. Somethings are constant and some are not.

    Only somethings change not everthing does. The one true faith does not change because the source of the one true faith doesn't change.


    The source of the one true faith isn't human.

    The only types of faith I condem are those that are illogical or those that are evil to give you two examples I would have to say Hinduism and the Nazi.

    There are some truths in other views but not the whole truth.

    Just two thoughts on this paragraph. I am like you I have investigated other faiths and have found my conclusion that the one I follow is the most logical to believe it. I'm not blind in my faith because I am open to critizism within my faith but I also strongly disagree with other world views for the reasons I stated earlier. Andd I am open to the fact that I could be wrong.
     
  13. Pilgrim of this Reality

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    Granted this is from the New Testament:
    "There is one body and one Spirit, just as your were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." Ephesians 4:4-6

    " Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way whihc leads to life, and there are few who find it." Matthew 7: 13-14

    Ok, I know that biblical verses won't convince everyone; I believe in the New Testament and constantly question that belief to see if its true:
    "Test all things; hold fast what is good." 1 Thessalonians

    Ultimately, we wont know who is right or wrong until we each face death. Unfortunately, by then it could be too late for all we know.
     
  14. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    He is not talking about one true faith, he is talking about unification. All mankind is unified through the spirit of God.

    "who is above all, and through all, and in you all".

    God is this connection. To believe in one true faith in disregard of all others is egoistic and self-dividing, the exact opposite of what this passage means. He is talking about unification, oneness. One body and One spirit. We are all made one through the blood of Christ, that is the spirit of God. The blood, the water, and the spirit all mean the same thing.
     
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  15. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    In his famous Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." (Matthew 7:13, 14) The Bible explicitly states that there is "one faith." (Ephesians 4:5) Clearly, many who are on the "broad" road have a religion. But they do not have the "one faith." Since there is only one true form of worship, those who desire to find that true faith will have to seek it out.

     
  16. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    Nope, still not talking about one true faith. More like one true reality, that being a unified totality because God is infinitely everything and everywhere. True worship is not physical, because external workings mean nothing. A person can worship in flesh, but be far from God in spirit. It is not the external workings that constitute the verdict, but the internal motives of a person's heart. A person sins before the sin is even committed. That is because the hidden agenda and motive for all sin is selfishness, which is pre-meditated in a person's mind and heart. Being selfish or egoistic is self-destructive. To believe in one true faith is ultimately egositic. The "ONE faith" he is speaking of is unification, that we are all unified through the spirit of God. Several people come to this conclusion regardless of legalistic dogma, or what religion they follow, or what walk of life. They come to this conclusion because they seek it, and only those who seek this truth ultimately find it. The people who are selfish and egoistic are blind of this reality and are the ones going into the wide gate that leads to self destruction. These are people who worship in flesh, but their hearts are far away from God, ultimately because they don't even know who God truely is. They isolate themselves from ONEness by being selfish.

    This is how I describe the one faith metaphorically. It is like an expert swordsman, who in a battle puts down his sword even before knifepoint, who instead of embracing his own sword learns to embrace everything around him. In the end, such a thing becomes more powerful than any sword. The sword becomes obsolete because it only causes human suffering and bloodshed. In the end, our true enemy is ourself. The sword represents his selfishness, his ego, and his pride. The suffering and bloodshed are the inflictions that we cause upon each other. In the end, it's not about I, or me me me. It's about we, it's about us. That is more logical than any legalistic dogma.

    We are strings that hit seperate notes. All stroked brings beauty, sounds soothing to the soul. If you break all but one string, nothing's left to play, everything is dull.

    Altough we hit seperate notes, we are all strings, we are all people. That in a way makes us inseperable.
     
  17. jewscout

    jewscout Religious Zionist

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    HA!:biglaugh:
     
  18. may

    may Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Christ definitely foretold that his one true congregation would be restored during what he called a conclusion of a system of things. (Matthew 13:30, 39) The fulfillment of Bible prophecies shows that we are now living in that time. (Matthew 24:3-35) That being true, each of us needs to ask, ‘Where is that one true church?’ It ought to become more and more clearly identifiable.

     
  19. Pilgrim of this Reality

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    Good point , oracle. But if that is true why does God warn of false teachings if everyone who is proclaims christianity is going to heaven but just on a different path? 2 Timothy 4:1-5; 1 Timothy 4: 1-5; Colossians 2:1-10; 1 John 4: 1-6;

    Division is wrong. 1 Corinthians 1: 10-17.

    Lets look at it this way. If we wrong someone do we walk up and tell them, " I have made a mistake. I am going to do this and this so you will then forgive me." ? Not usually. We usually go and ask that person what we can do to rectify the issue. How is this any different from our dealings with God?
     
  20. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    I understand what you are saying. I believe those of this faith are those who come from the whole, not those who are self-divided. There is a shift within human consciousness. Within the next century, schisms will begin to reverse themselves. Mankind will be more unified, more loving, more understanding, more knowledgable of the true knowledge of God: that God is a connection that unifies all things.
     
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