• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The One Cause of Poverty That’s Never Considered

Kfox

Well-Known Member
So you believe that unlimited greed is the proper motivation for all decisions involving commercial enterprise even though it clearly harms many of the people involved,
When did I ever say anything like that? C’mon try responding to what I actually say rather than make up a bunch of stuff and accuse me of saying it.
Look; of all of the capitalist Countries, none of them are 100% capitalist without restrictions, and they all have a faction of socialism within them; schools, police departments, etc. Capitalist countries allow socialism when necessary, but socialist countries don’t allow capitalism when needed.
By the way. I have no issue with Lebron James being paid millions of dollars more than the average player. But not even Lebron's skills are worth hundreds of millions more than the other players, or more that any other human on the planet.
By what standard are you making this claim? According to my standard, if you are responsible for the creation of (example) a $billion worth of wealth, and you create it in a way that allows you to keep 10% of it for yourself allowing the rest to be distributed to everyone else, I find that perfectly acceptable. So explain why you consider such a scenario to be a bad thing.
And no human is doing anything to actually earn that much of a share of the nation's or the world's wealth.
Suppose they didn’t earn a share of the nations, or even the world’s wealth, but they created wealth where it previously didn’t exist! Would you be okay with them creating wealth and keeping a small percentage of it for themselves? Or would you rather they do not create any wealth resulting in them, the nation, and the world having less wealth because of it.
 

Kfox

Well-Known Member
How so? They didn't inherit before but with a 100% inheritance tax, the other taxes can be cut or even eliminated, thus everyone can keep more of the income.
Parents should be able to pass something down to their children when they die. For the Government to take everything they own after death is wrong IMO.
That would have to do with morality, especially with the equality aspect.
To have everybody start off poor? No; that would be immoral.
But I think we have established that you don't care about morality
No; I just don’t agree with your version of morality
let's switch to practicality. You said that the competition from Europe and Asia put the US in a position where they basically couldn't keep up a social net, like a third world country.
No I didn’t say that. The USA has a huge safety net.
I.e. Europe and Asia out-competed the US - with social systems intact.
Didn’t say that either. I said they finally began to provide competition once they rebuilt.
When a more social systems wins against a more capitalistic system, doesn't that tell you that the more social system is superior?
Win? By what standard are you talking about?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
You act like you speak for all Americans when in reality you speak for an idiotic minority
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
No; I just don’t agree with your version of morality
Obviously. You have rejected equality and minimization of suffering/maximization of prosperity and, even so we didn't get too deep into it, I suspect you also reject liberty.
What are your moral primitives?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Give an example of a factor That I’ve over looked.

We don’t want it to work over here. There are too many Americans who like the idea of being able to keep the fruits of our labor without having too much of it taken away from us and given to someone else we consider less deserving of it. We have a different culture, and a different economic system than some of those other countries have and we want what we have, not what they have; that’s why we keep electing politicians that keep the current system in place.

You answered your own question in a sense. You and the ones, who vote like you, understand it differently, And you rate the effects differently. That is all.
If you look at the concept of "cradle to grave" and what it costs to get that in Europe in general for a middle class family with 2 kids, then since you Americas don't pay for it through the taxes, you have more money available.
But if you try to pay for the level in Europe individually you end up with less money available in the current US system.
Now for rich people it doesn't really matter if they live the one or the other place, They are still rich. As for poor/middle class people we still have those.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
When did I ever say anything like that? C’mon try responding to what I actually say rather than make up a bunch of stuff and accuse me of saying it.
Look; of all of the capitalist Countries, none of them are 100% capitalist without restrictions, and they all have a faction of socialism within them; schools, police departments, etc. Capitalist countries allow socialism when necessary, but socialist countries don’t allow capitalism when needed.
So, you think greed is not a proper motive for commercial enterprise because the government has to keep stepping in to mitigate the damage it does to the general population? Well, until the capitalists can amass enough wealth and power to corrupt the government and render it ineffective at curtailing their greed. Which is it? Make up your mind, and please clarify?

I understand that people will be greedy. Some more than others. What I don't understand is why we allow our economic system to be completely controlled by the greed of capital investors. And I say greed because that's what motivates capital investment ... greed. Capitalists are people with more wealth than they need to live on that are using the excess to capture even more wealth, still. And when you give them complete control of commercial enterprise, they will use that control to maximize the return they are gaining on their investment capital, EVERY TIME. Because that's why they are investing it. Every decision they make regarding that commercial enterprise will be based on that goal. And everything and everyone that detracts from that goal will be viewed as an enemy to their cause. Which is pretty much everyone else involved in the commercial enterprise: vendors, labor, consumers, resources, community, and environmental responsibility. All impediments to the maximization of profit, and all therefor factors to be subjugated and exploited for their maximum gain.

And all this contention then requires the government to constantly reign it in, to protect everyone else involved in commercial enterprise. Which is an enormous task that will often fail, or get neglected. Especially when the capitalists are constantly seeking ways of undermining those governmental efforts, and they have massive amounts of wealth with which to do so.
According to my standard, if you are responsible for the creation of (example) a $billion worth of wealth, and you create it in a way that allows you to keep 10% of it for yourself allowing the rest to be distributed to everyone else, I find that perfectly acceptable. So explain why you consider such a scenario to be a bad thing.
No individual creates that kind of wealth. We all do it, together. But because the investor is being given total control over the wealth producing enterprise through the myth of 'ownership' people like you think they did it all by themselves. Like some economic demigod. So they should be able to claim all the profits for themselves. But no single human creates any significant wealth on his own. It requires the systemic cooperation of many people, ALL OF WHOM should then be sharing in the wealth benefit being generated. But they aren't. Because as much of it as possible is always going to the capital investors. And every decision they make is intended to ensure and maintain that result. It's exactly why they pay their CEOs 1,500 times more than the people that actually produce the wealth. They do it to ensure that as much of the increased wealth generated as possible continues to go to them.
Suppose they didn’t earn a share of the nations, or even the world’s wealth, but they created wealth where it previously didn’t exist! Would you be okay with them creating wealth and keeping a small percentage of it for themselves? Or would you rather they do not create any wealth resulting in them, the nation, and the world having less wealth because of it.
Excess wealth is useless if it's not being invested. We have no reason to presume that people with excess wealth will not invest it even if we don't give them total control over the commercial enterprise they've invested in. Also, investing in commercial enterprise is not "creating wealth". It does not make the investor some sort of commercial creator-god. If the enterprise generates wealth, it's because everyone involved in it enabled it to do so. And because everyone involved in it will be effected by how it's conducted, everyone involved in it should be given a share of control over how it's being conducted, and afforded a share of the wealth it generates. Not by their having to fight with the investors, and with each other for the scraps the investors leave unclaimed. This constant battle for economic survival and for greed is stupid, wasteful, unjust, and unnecessary.

But sharing the control and the wealth being generated is called socialism. Not capitalism. And the capitalists will fight any inclination in that direction tooth and nail. Because they are greedy, and they want ALL the generated wealth for themselves. And the more we allow them to get it, the more unstable our whole system becomes, until it will finally and inevitably collapse. Because there is no other possible result. Haven't you even played the Monopoly Game? Teaching this lesson is why that game was created. Unfortunately, we still have not learned the lesson. And we're running out of time.
 
Last edited:

Kfox

Well-Known Member
Obviously. You have rejected equality and minimization of suffering/maximization of prosperity and, even so we didn't get too deep into it, I suspect you also reject liberty. What are your moral primitives?
You obviously reject fairness in an effort to obtain equality at all costs. What are your moral primitives?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
When did I ever say anything like that? C’mon try responding to what I actually say rather than make up a bunch of stuff and accuse me of saying it.
Look; of all of the capitalist Countries, none of them are 100% capitalist without restrictions, and they all have a faction of socialism within them; schools, police departments, etc. Capitalist countries allow socialism when necessary, but socialist countries don’t allow capitalism when needed.

By what standard are you making this claim? According to my standard, if you are responsible for the creation of (example) a $billion worth of wealth, and you create it in a way that allows you to keep 10% of it for yourself allowing the rest to be distributed to everyone else, I find that perfectly acceptable. So explain why you consider such a scenario to be a bad thing.

Suppose they didn’t earn a share of the nations, or even the world’s wealth, but they created wealth where it previously didn’t exist! Would you be okay with them creating wealth and keeping a small percentage of it for themselves? Or would you rather they do not create any wealth resulting in them, the nation, and the world having less wealth because of it.
I've tried to convince my old uncle, late of the Red Guard
that wealth is not a zero sum game.

Even looking down at the towers of Hong Kong from the
Peak, knowing it was once just a poor fishing village can't
convince him.

I do t know why wealth creation is so hard for some to
grasp, but I suspect extreme and emotion backed ideology
is the core of it.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I've tried to convince my old uncle, late of the Red Guard
that wealth is not a zero sum game.

Even looking down at the towers of Hong Kong from the
Peak, knowing it was once just a poor fishing village can't
convince him.

I do t know why wealth creation is so hard for some to
grasp, but I suspect extreme and emotion backed ideology
is the core of it.

No, that is a part of it. Now you just have to show it is all that matters.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
It came to my mind, and seemed apropos in the context of this conversation.

We all take more than we need from what is all around us. Very few of us are immune to avarice. But the rich do take proportionally more than the poor, so in that sense their crime is that much the greater.
I did revise my q., which was about the opinion of a business failure on
the character of those who are successful. But never mind.

On to your response.

Your contention is that because i have more than you, as is to
a certainty the case, that I take from the poor, what I have
is the result of sin and crime, and, this being the case that
I am morally inferior to the 99 percent, including you?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
I did revise my q., which was about the opinion of a business failure on
the character of those who are successful. But never mind.

But on to your response.

Your contention is that because i have more than you, as is to
a certainty the case, that I take from the poor, what I have
is the result of sin and crime, and, this being the case that
I am morally inferior to the 99 percent, including you?

Since you understand this subject can you link it to the problem of luck in morality?
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
I did revise my q., which was about the opinion of a business failure on
the character of those who are successful. But never mind.

On to your response.

Your contention is that because i have more than you, as is to
a certainty the case, that I take from the poor, what I have
is the result of sin and crime, and, this being the case that
I am morally inferior to the 99 percent, including you?
yes that would be right
 

Audie

Veteran Member
yes that would be right
No prob, I don't like you either.

But hey, if you find me to be morally inferior to all such
as yourself, isn't it the honorable thing to just say so?

Instead of insinuting it by referring to someone else's words.
 
Last edited:

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
I did revise my q., which was about the opinion of a business failure on
the character of those who are successful. But never mind.

On to your response.

Your contention is that because i have more than you, as is to
a certainty the case, that I take from the poor, what I have
is the result of sin and crime, and, this being the case that
I am morally inferior to the 99 percent, including you?

No, I don’t think you are morally inferior to me. I have no business judging you, and wasn’t being entirely serious anyway.

That said, Balzac has a point, at least from the perspective of European history; Europe’s old aristocratic families are mostly direct descendants of the robber barons and chain mailed thugs who parcelled up the land and lived off the labour of peaceful farmers and peasants. The more recently acquired family fortunes, passed down from the 16th and 17th centuries, almost certainly profited from the transatlantic slave trade. That was the context in which he made his observation.
 
Top