1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

The Obvious Facts Nobody Else Outside Your Faith Seems to Understand

Discussion in 'Interfaith Discussion' started by Exaltist Ethan, Jul 3, 2022.

  1. Exaltist Ethan

    Exaltist Ethan Synverse Shaper

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,118
    Ratings:
    +1,049
    Religion:
    Earthseed
    When I talk to Christians they seem to have much of the same talking points, that is apologetics. If God exists why is there evil? To allow free will. I then argue from that point that there is no free will in Heaven, if there is no evil in Heaven. I digress. Most Christians seem to be equipped with talking points on why and how things are and base their claims on their "leap of faith" rather than "blind faith" as is Christian apologetics. And every Christian seems to focus on a set rule of "obvious facts" that nobody else outside of their religion can understand. For some people it's the gospel: believe in Jesus and be rewarded in the afterlife. I would argue that it is impossible to be rewarded for a belief rather than an action but again, Christian apologetics argues differently.

    As for my own beliefs, the syntheist argument is crucially simple and easy to understand. If change is constantly happening then Godhood is evitable; the pretheist syntheists would argue that Godhood is going to occur, but where I fall, the pantheist syntheism argument, would say that Godhood exists already because everything is weavening between different divine traits and consciousnesses. I agree with the pretheist syntheists by saying that divinity will occur more rapidly in the future, but I disagree with their idea that Godhood hasn't been reached yet. Even if you could go back in time, all the way to the beginning which the total was one, I would argue that itself is God because it has the capability to be or do whatever it wants granted the energy becomes life one day. Those two talking points are the primary reason why I consider myself a pantheistic syntheist, and for some reason those two obvious facts are not widely understood outside my small religious bubble.

    I have taken two exoteric examples from Christianity and two esoteric examples from my own views and explained to you where and how people fall on these issues regarding those faiths. The easiest one to understand is atheism. No evidence, correct? That's all an atheist has to say to stop a Christian (or syntheist) dead on the issue. However, Christians point to the Bible as enough evidence for such and syntheism is an extremely subjective argument, especially mine, so for me and my obvious type of theism would escape most people who simply do not view God the same way I do.

    So now I bring it back to you. I would like to know what are the obvious facts that your beliefs bring about that nobody outside your religion seems to understand. And if your answer is agnostic, atheist or simply lacks faith you can retort your irreligious apologetics too. But I'm genuinely curious and interested in the most basic facts you have come to accept that simply led you down one faith. I have already given examples for both Christians and myself and I'd like you, the reader, to answer the same appearing that the basis of your arguments are held by facts and evidence rather than pure faith or subjectivism. Both Christian and syntheist arguments require both but regardless there seems to be obvious evidence on both claims from either religion.

    So, please, use this thread to throw in your religious or lack thereof apologetics. Don't hold back! I am looking forward to discuss and understand where you come from on this subject matter.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. The Hammer

    The Hammer Wyrd Wide Web
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    16,034
    Ratings:
    +21,809
    Religion:
    Druid
    Meh. Why should I attempt to prove my views and standpoints to you? What's in it for me?
     
    • Winner Winner x 2
  3. Exaltist Ethan

    Exaltist Ethan Synverse Shaper

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,118
    Ratings:
    +1,049
    Religion:
    Earthseed
    Or even better yet, if this is what you thought as you were reading my thread why did you even bother to reply?
     
  4. The Hammer

    The Hammer Wyrd Wide Web
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    16,034
    Ratings:
    +21,809
    Religion:
    Druid
    Just as a point to show you, that even those that are religious, typically don't really care what those outside of their faith have to say about their faith.

    That's the true fact that no one outside of my religion, seems to understand.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  5. Exaltist Ethan

    Exaltist Ethan Synverse Shaper

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,118
    Ratings:
    +1,049
    Religion:
    Earthseed
    The point of this thread wasn't for outside debate. I posted this in interfaith discussion, not religious debates. I simply want to know more belief systems because the more I understand who we are the more I understand who I am. And that is something you frankly have a hard time understanding.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  6. The Hammer

    The Hammer Wyrd Wide Web
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2009
    Messages:
    16,034
    Ratings:
    +21,809
    Religion:
    Druid
    Hard time understanding, no not really. But that's not the vibe I got from reading your OP. :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Exaltist Ethan

    Exaltist Ethan Synverse Shaper

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,118
    Ratings:
    +1,049
    Religion:
    Earthseed
    You already gave me very detailed explanations of your Druid faith in PMs. All I'm asking is to shorten it so I'm not reading articles on your beliefs. Please, just try to boil it down for me. I am not asking or looking for a conversion, but when you help me understand the realm of possibilities and your position on it, it helps me reflect on my own beliefs. Sometimes I will literally go to a Christian church so I learn more about my own syntheism, for example. I have to be honest, I didn't read any of the material you gave me outside the personal messages. This really isn't that difficult and I'm not looking to bicker or argue with anyone who simply came to a different view point than my own. You may say something that allows me to see things slightly differently, and while I most likely will never be a Druid like you, I may incorporate some Druid-like of your beliefs into my own. This is interfaith discussion Hammer, I'm not going to or trying to start a religious flame war on the Internet. Heck, I try to avoid the debate threads most of the time honestly.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. John53

    John53 Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2017
    Messages:
    10,142
    Ratings:
    +8,416
    Religion:
    Atheist
    Humans like to be in groups of like minded people. And I think there are a few religions that offer after life brownie points for conversions.
     
  9. Exaltist Ethan

    Exaltist Ethan Synverse Shaper

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,118
    Ratings:
    +1,049
    Religion:
    Earthseed
    I re-read my conversation with you and reminded myself of your bullet point from before. I guess that's fine. I won't share it with anyone else. But your concept is still interesting to me. Sorry, my last post probably comes off as a little rude - like I'm trying to understand you but not really put in the effort to do so. I don't need you to share anything else with me. I apologize.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  10. Kenny

    Kenny Face to face with my Father
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2013
    Messages:
    19,532
    Ratings:
    +7,558
    Religion:
    Judeo/Christian
    I find it so amusing that you would laser into Christianity as if it is just that faith that you have a difficulty with.

    Why zero into Christianity and not, say, Hinduism or Buddhism? Or another faith?

    Is it possible that you don't understand because it is outside your faith?

    Why is there evil? Why are there people who try to denigrate another person's faith? maybe if you ask yourself that question, maybe that will help answer your questions?

    ???

    As opposed to robots? To allow? or BECAUSE there is free will.

    ????

    In our faith, Satan was an archangel that was in Heaven when he decided to do evil.

    Do you have your information correct?
     
    #10 Kenny, Jul 3, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2022
  11. Viker

    Viker Spirit in Black

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2011
    Messages:
    8,818
    Ratings:
    +8,836
    Religion:
    aquelarres federados en diabolismo, diabolatría, satanismo teísta, luciferismo
    Being that I am a part of what could still be considered a Satanic religion, I always leave it to outsiders to know or understand more about my religion than I do. There's always facts I seem to be missing. Memos I have never received. :rolleyes:

    Isn't that how it works for everyone?
     
  12. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2017
    Messages:
    52,583
    Ratings:
    +49,946
    Religion:
    None
    One obvious fact faith is not fact, it is belief.

    I have trouble with words so i stick to the definition, not to my belief. Often meaning there is confusion (and yes, even argument) when people use what they believe to be fact even though there is nothing, no reality, no hard evidence to back up their "fact" as factual.

    I.e. does god exist? Christian view, without doubt that is a fact.
    Druid point of view, yes, many.
    Atheist point of view, evidence, where is the evidence?

    The fact is there is no falsifiable evidence for a gods existence, only belief that unexplained events mean god does not make it a fact.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    36,857
    Ratings:
    +17,007
    Religion:
    liber-scripta grim Christian
    This seems like what modern Setians say. You might be in the same camp depending upon what you think God is. The term need not imply subjugation of your own will if you are either pantheist or panentheist. I think Setians would say that you are talking about blossoming into higher levels of self or something like that, using the term 'Xeper'. You'd find parallels between their religion and your ideas.

    You have given up on Christianity once you have decided that it is a confined and an unchanging thing, set in stone, rather than something still being discovered. It is a common mistake for critics of anything to decide they fully understand something based upon limited experience. Sometimes it is not a mistake and is a purposeful attempt to antiquate and obliterate something, such as when one political party describes the other as starchy and inflexible or disconnected from reality. It doesn't make for a real argument though, unless the claims are accurate. For such claims to perch you have to be specific, such as being specific about which Christians you are referring to when you say that every Christian seems to focus upon a set rule of obvious facts that nobody else outside of their religion can understand. It is a generalization that has to be justified to be believed.

    I have a notion about the divine that is difficult to work through or to explain. It is also obvious to me that many things cannot be openly discussed peacefully due to the differences between men and women, children and adults. To me we aren't truly one species but several, divided along the lines of age and sex.
     
    #13 Brickjectivity, Jul 4, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2022
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. PureX

    PureX Veteran Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2006
    Messages:
    23,838
    Ratings:
    +13,212
    Religion:
    Philosophical Taoist/Christian
    The Obvious Facts Nobody Else Outside Your Faith Seems to Understand

    That the existence of God is logically self-evident by way of existential agency.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Vestigial Member
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2016
    Messages:
    17,750
    Ratings:
    +31,480
    Religion:
    Hindu
    The Hindu argument is that there is no argument.

    There are many rivers, and all appear to be different, but all are carved from the same substance, and all fall into the sea.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Polymath257

    Polymath257 Think & Care
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2017
    Messages:
    25,565
    Ratings:
    +32,601
    Religion:
    Non-theist
    Basic facts in my belief system:

    1. Life is a chemical process. No spirit or supernatural is required.

    2. Consciousness is a brain process.

    3. Belief requires evidence.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Exaltist Ethan

    Exaltist Ethan Synverse Shaper

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2012
    Messages:
    1,118
    Ratings:
    +1,049
    Religion:
    Earthseed
    It's kind of difficult to be part of the left-handed path when I don't believe in black, or rather, any magic. Plus, I don't believe in self-deification. I believe that everything is becoming more God like, not just me. I do not wish to be a God among mere mortals, but to be a God among other Gods.

    Parts of Christianity are still changing. The liberal Christians (left-handed Christianity, lol) have gone so far to create their own faith based on Protestant Christianity: Unitarian Universalists. And similarly the Quakers have kind of done their own thing too. I consider Quakerism to be spirituality without religion, and UUs to be religion without spirituality. How I identify myself is I am the spirituality of Quakerism and the religiosity of the UUs. Since I consider myself both spiritual and religious I cannot be one without the other. The Mormons also have created a denomination of Christianity that has changed over time as well. But I think in general you are right: Christianity does not change, but the denominations in it do. The United Methodist Church is about to split up, for example.

    That short description actually may be the most defined answer anyone has given regarding their religious worldview in this thread. I disagree with it, but I respect your views nonetheless.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Brickjectivity

    Brickjectivity Turned to Stone. Now I stretch daily.
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    36,857
    Ratings:
    +17,007
    Religion:
    liber-scripta grim Christian
    I don't mean to paint you into a corner. I'm just saying that you are into self improvement like setians are.

    A pip for the Quakers: The Quakers have a supremely scriptural religion in my opinion based in the Christian protestant canon. They have embraced Jesus teaching that "The spirit goes where it wills." Christian sects make fences to keep the spirit in. I could support the scriptural basis of Quakerism with only my pinkie finger and one foot tied on top of my head and no letter Q on my keyboard.

    You tolerate my views? Thanks!
     
    • Like Like x 1
Loading...