The NFL and Trump

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do they advertise as including religion in the Races? Do they call themselves the Christian races? If they do then you should be instructed what to do to fulfill a paid advertisement.

I'm not sure you'd call it "advertising", but there's often a note in the program saying "invocation by Pastor Whoever of Church of the Holy Whatsit." There's also a note at the bottom of the agenda saying "subject to change."

Personally as a race fan, I'd have more of a problem with losing a qualifying session of a support race because of the cleanup time for the car puking oil all up the back straight than I would be about some marshal not bowing his head during the prayer.

Just to be clear: I think your position is ridiculous; I just wanted to see if you're consistently ridiculous or ridiculous and hypocritical.

There was a famous event (famous in Toronto, anyway) from the World Series one year when the Blue Jays won: in one game, the US Marine colour guard displayed the Canadian flag upside down. They explained later that he did it accidentally, but it made the Canadian news as an affront to our national pride.

What recourse do you think the fans should've got for that incident? As it turns out, they got nothing, but your bizarre argument implies that they didn't receive everything they expected to be buying with their admission. So what should they habe received as compensation?

 

[Valjean]

Ognuno di noi ha un'ascia per macinare.

Bravo! But I confess I don't recognize the quotation -- or is this your own opinion?

No, just living my life as a law-abiding citizen, going about his daily business. Oh wait! I did get stopped by a police officer... he wanted to tell me my tail light was out. He didn't get nasty or drag me out of my truck when I didn't call him names or ask him why he was doing his job.

Yet we have the Homeland Security Act, your every email, phone call and keystroke is recorded; there are police in Walgreens -- not to mention schools, government buildings and transportation hubs; We're summarily executing or disappearing American citizens, police answer calls in military combat kit, they anticipate deadly force in every encounter, surveillance cameras are becoming ubiquitous, I need a magnetic ID to get into a university library or student union, the CIA is now a branch of the military...

Big brother is watching -- and ready to intervene. So perhaps I do have an axe to grind, but it's legitimate, IMHO.

 

[Jainarayan]

Bravo! But I confess I don't recognize the quotation -- or is this your own opinion?

"Everyone has an axe to grind", something I always say, meaning everyone has a complaint about something.

there are police in Walgreens -- not to mention schools, government buildings and transportation hubs;

Something I welcome with open arms. It gives me warm fuzzies to know I'm being looked after.

We're summarily executing or disappearing American citizens

I think that's a bit melodramatic, but...

police answer calls in military combat kit, they anticipate deadly force in every encounter

Can you blame them, when every Tom, Dick and Harry wants to put a bullet in them? How many police officers have been executed just sitting in their patrol cars?

surveillance cameras are becoming ubiquitous, I need a magnetic ID to get into a university library or student union, the CIA is now a branch of the military...

You don't see any of this as protection for you? I do. Not so sure about the CIA though; they've always been questionable.

I'm of the opinion that if I haven't done anything wrong, I don't have anything to fear.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

These players do not mind taking millions of US dollars to play ball. But they can't respect the country that makes it possible for them to play? It is not about politics but about respect for the country. Go play ball in North Korea and see if you can show disrespect to the country or its leaders. If you can't respect the US then give back all the money and find a new job.

You don't make a bit of sense. Your opinion sounds more along the line of North Korea than that of a democratic freedom lover. You don't support their right to voice their opinion, yourself. You obviously want them to be punished for it or to have that freedom "in theory" but never use it because your nationalist sentiments are offended by it. That's not real freedom. Freedom includes the freedom to protest, including to burn the flag, deride and express hatred of the president and other government leaders, refuse to say the pledge, refuse to stand for the anthem, etc.

 

[Augustus]

There was a famous event (famous in Toronto, anyway) from the World Series one year when the Blue Jays won: in one game, the US Marine colour guard displayed the Canadian flag upside down. They explained later that he did it accidentally, but it made the Canadian news as an affront to our national pride.

Do they play the Canadian anthem before every NHL, NBA, MLB game in Canada? Or only on special occasions?

Outside of North American sports I've never seen anyone play the national anthem before regular games, only internationals, finals and one-offs like F1 GPs.

Don't see the point really.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't know why anyone cares passionately about some entertainers kneeling down for a minute while someone sings a song.

Because it isn't about kneeling or the song. It's about police violence against black people. The kneelers think too many black people are dying at the hands of the police; the people upset with the kneelers think an appropriate number of black people are dying at the hands of the police.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do they play the Canadian anthem before every NHL, NBA, MLB game in Canada? Or only on special occasions?

Yes. Also the American anthem if they're playing a US team (so most NHL games and all NBA & MLB games).

Outside of North American sports I've never seen anyone play the national anthem before regular games, only internationals, finals and one-offs like F1 GPs.

Most high-level auto racing also has it. NASCAR, IndyCar, Tudor, etc.

Don't see the point really.

My theory: big sporting events tend to happen on Sunday. Also, the US tends to conflate religion and patriotism. The net effect is that if you can convince yourself that watching sports is a patriotic activity, then it makes it easier to justify that you're skipping church to do it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

@Augustus - when you said "North America" reminded me of something. People who think sports are apolitical should hear the crowd sing "Flower of Scotland" before a Scotland/England rugby match.

 

[metis]

when you said "North America" reminded me of something. People who think sports are apolitical should hear the crowd sing "Flower of Scotland" before a Scotland/England rugby match.

Ya, and they would fight over even the flip of the coin.

 

[Augustus]

@Augustus - when you said "North America" reminded me of something. People who think sports are apolitical should hear the crowd sing "Flower of Scotland" before a Scotland/England rugby match.

That's more about hating the English than anything political

Some sport teams have a political identity, most notably St Pauli. Glasgow Rangers and Celtic have Unionist and Irish Nationalist identities. Many European and South American clubs also have left or right wing identities that have been developed or been coopted for political interests.

 

[leibowde84]

The second time I have agreed with Trump.

Sports teams adopted the National Anthem to attract Fans during war time. It gave fans something to root for about the United States while their family was in battle. As such Fans pay for this right in the ticket sales.

While freedom of speech is everyone's right if you sell a service you must deliver the product. All NFL employees need to clarify the services the game provides and then honor them. You can't charge for services not provided.

The protests themselves are not protests at all. There is no loss of anything by kneeling or not participating in the national anthem. They do not interrupt the game, they still get paid and they still play. The only one being hurt are the Fans that believe American Football is a national game. While I believe these fans to be naive they still are paying customers and the NFL promotes itself as such a game.

I would like to see the FCC step in and require the NFL to not advertise as a National or Patriotic game if they are not going to support the National Anthem company wide.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but can you provide a link to an example of where the NFL claimed to be patriotic?

 

[bobhikes]

When I purchased NFL Game Pass, at no point was I led to believe that I was purchasing guaranteed national anthems with or without people standing.

(As a non-American I think I'd actually pay extra not to have to hear someone butchering the Star Spangled Banner for what seems like 10 minutes prior to every game )

Why you purchased your tickets have no bearing on law. The NFL advertises as a national sport, NFL Stadiums advertise special singers of the national anthem. They are legally making it a presale part of there experience. Stop advertising it and using it and both you and I are satisfied.

 

[bobhikes]

But what is being advertised? Are you claiming that the NFL actually ADVERTISES that their players are going to stand for the national anthem? Do they also advertise that their players are going to be patriotic to the U.S.? And for anyone claiming that this should fall under some sort of "professional behavior" vs. "private behavior" heading, does it explicitly state anywhere in the players' contracts that they are to adhere to any and all patriotic observances? The term "unprofessional" is actually very much just a political weakness of business practice. It belies cowardice, and an over-adherence to kissing everyone's buttocks.

Calling this scenario with the kneeling "unprofessional" is like me bringing a peanut butter and jelly sandwich to work and my boss suddenly telling me that PB&J is kid's food and therefore unprofessional. If I didn't sign-on understanding that PB&J was forbidden in the workplace, then my boss can go stuff himself, or they can go ahead and make rules surrounding PB&J. But I ask you - in the case where they DO outlaw PB&J, who looks like the bigger idiot? In fact... who IS the bigger idiot?

What you believe and what law states are 2 different things. Yes NFL stadiums go out of there way to promote famous people coming to sing the national anthem. Yes the NFL adds go out of there way to link National Pride to NFL games.

 

[bobhikes]

I'm not sure you'd call it "advertising", but there's often a note in the program saying "invocation by Pastor Whoever of Church of the Holy Whatsit." There's also a note at the bottom of the agenda saying "subject to change."

Personally as a race fan, I'd have more of a problem with losing a qualifying session of a support race because of the cleanup time for the car puking oil all up the back straight than I would be about some marshal not bowing his head during the prayer.

Just to be clear: I think your position is ridiculous; I just wanted to see if you're consistently ridiculous or ridiculous and hypocritical.

There was a famous event (famous in Toronto, anyway) from the World Series one year when the Blue Jays won: in one game, the US Marine colour guard displayed the Canadian flag upside down. They explained later that he did it accidentally, but it made the Canadian news as an affront to our national pride.

What recourse do you think the fans should've got for that incident? As it turns out, they got nothing, but your bizarre argument implies that they didn't receive everything they expected to be buying with their admission. So what should they habe received as compensation?

It may be a ridiculous position but it would stand up in court.

 

[metis]

A question I just asked on another "kneeling" thread that I want to ask here because it's not getting covered is why did Trump decide to get into this now, especially with so many other much more serious problems? What's his motive?

 

[bobhikes]

I'm not saying you are wrong, but can you provide a link to an example of where the NFL claimed to be patriotic?

http://www.billboard.com/articles/n...-national-anthem-performances-whitney-beyonce

These Are The Top 6 Epic Football Game Flyovers

NFL recognizes Veterans Day and honors military with a 'Salute to Service' campaign

Military paid sports teams $10.4M for tributes

The Buying and Selling of Patriotic Stunts at NFL Games

 

[bobhikes]

A question I just asked on another "kneeling" thread that I want to ask here because it's not getting covered is why did Trump decide to get into this now, especially with so many other much more serious problems? What's his motive?

In my opinion Trump is an idiot looking for a distraction but the NFL is being just as stupid.

 

[leibowde84]

Top 10 Super Bowl National Anthem Performances

These Are The Top 6 Epic Football Game Flyovers

NFL recognizes Veterans Day and honors military with a 'Salute to Service' campaign

Military paid sports teams $10.4M for tributes

The Buying and Selling of Patriotic Stunts at NFL Games

I can't find anything here where the NFL claims it is a patriotic organization. Can you provide a quote?

 

[bobhikes]

I can't find anything here where the NFL claims it is a patriotic organization. Can you provide a quote?

Googled NFL adds claiming patriotism this is the first

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell: “We’re all about patriotism” | Atlanta Buzz with Jennifer Brett

and another good one

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...onsored-patriotism_us_573dffd5e4b0aee7b8e9542

 

[leibowde84]

Googled NFL adds claiming patriotism this is the first

NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell: “We’re all about patriotism” | Atlanta Buzz with Jennifer Brett

and another good one

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...onsored-patriotism_us_573dffd5e4b0aee7b8e9542

Got it. Thanks.