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Featured The new science - Information Integration

Discussion in 'Evolution Vs. Creationism' started by Landon Caeli, Jul 11, 2019.

  1. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    What a foolish response.
     
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  2. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Nothing here of substance that would falsify a hypothesis supporting Intelligent Design. He presents a philosophical/theological argument for ID and not a scientific one.
     
  3. Sapiens

    Sapiens Polymathematician

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    Only to one insufficiently wise to understand ... must I further embarrass you by explaining in detail? I do so hate shooting fish in a barrel.
     
    #23 Sapiens, Jul 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  4. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    This sounds like it might be a demonstration of Kaufman's order for free. However, I suspect that gene pools have always been a little pre-ordered because as DNA molecules evolved some of that information integration already happened. So you get selection for more efficient DNA as DNA developed and you get new efficiencies built in to the range of existing DNA molecules in the spectrum of biological organisms.
     
  5. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    Actually, there are two kinds of ID, from my understanding. There is Intelligent Design and intelligent Design -lower case i.

    The latter deals with pure science, and includes the ideas of Memes and Information Integration.

    Here's a video that I watched 30 min. of last night, which got better every minute. Daniel Dennett is an Atheist.



     
    #25 Landon Caeli, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
  6. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    The concept of the term "meme" comes from Darwins "selfish gene" theory.
     
  7. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Not true...information is intimately tied up in causality and is understood as non-entropic activity at its lowest level. Any system that "encodes input" from another system like a farmer's crop from last year's weather is an informational transfer.
     
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  8. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Here is my recommended reading list for those science-y types that are not familiar with this stuff...

    Journalistic introduction to Complex Adaptive Systems
    https://www.amazon.com/Complexity-E...exity+science&qid=1562940666&s=gateway&sr=8-4

    Ground-breaking work on "order for free" that will hand science the keys to the kingdom of any last ToE skepticism:
    https://www.amazon.com/At-Home-Univ...uart+kauffman&qid=1562940887&s=gateway&sr=8-3

    Also on Information Theory...
    https://www.amazon.com/Information-...mation+theory&qid=1562943831&s=gateway&sr=8-7

    Here's a quick video that some might understand (highly compressed discussion) especially if you have read the above:



    This science is going to transform how we think about evolution and consciousness as it will hopefully give us the stories and metaphors we need to make even ToE a more familiar and palatable reflection of our everyday reality.
     
    #28 sealchan, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
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  9. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! Love Daniel Dennett...added to my Watch Later list in YouTube
     
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  10. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    Dude - are you familiar with what is called 'metaphorical language'? Or do you really believe that the sun 'goes down' at night?
     
  11. tas8831

    tas8831 Well-Known Member

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    Says who?

    You are apparently unaware that the very concept of "information" is a human contrivance, and artificial construct.
    Pity that so many creationists formulate 'arguments' on such notions.


    HUMAN intelligence, yes.


    You are claiming that Yahweh is a human?
     
  12. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    It wa Dawkins that proposed the 'selfish gene' theory not Darwin. The 'selfish gene' theory is based on the facts of evolution, but remainx a philosophical view that the survival of the gene is the driving force for evolution.

    Dawkins did invent the term meme, and the 'meme theory,' but separate from the 'selfish gene' theory, and for different reasons, the concept of evolution applies to both as far as Dawkins and others propose.

    From: Meme - Wikipedia
    "A meme (/miːm/ MEEM[1][2][3]) is an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture—often with the aim of conveying a particular phenomenon, theme, or meaning represented by the meme.[4] A meme acts as a unit for carrying cultural ideas, symbols, or practices, that can be transmitted from one mind to another through writing, speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomena with a mimicked theme. Supporters of the concept regard memes as cultural analogues to genes in that they self-replicate, mutate, and respond to selective pressures."
     
    #32 shunyadragon, Jul 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2019
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  13. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Care to give us a quick synopsis in your own words.
     
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    I am a long term fan of Gleick since is first book Chaos: Making a New Theory.
     
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  15. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    I easily acknowledge human intelligent design no problem and nothing new. Yes, Daniel Dennett is an atheist, and we probably agree on the facts of science, but we have a different philosophy, and an interpretation of what we may call the 'information integration.'

    I share Dennett's belief in compatibilism, but believe in a different version that is more open ended.
     
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  16. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    This won't do Stuart Kauffman justice I'm sure...

    A system exists in a space divided into orderly and chaotic regions. At the interface of these regions is a critical zone where order and chaos are "balanced". Systems that can find this critical zone are stable and creative. Such systems give rise to self-organizing behaviors out of random interactions. These self-organizing behaviors "grow" taking up more and more of the space of total interactions until they reach a maximum. This maximum becomes a strong or even dominant determinant of behavior in that system. This behavior can persist long term and is adaptive to many changes in the systemic environment.

    This happens naturally for many natural and human systems which are allowed sufficient degrees of freedom and enough interactions between largely, but not entirely, similar and consistent parts. As such we see order "arising for free" in systems largely, initially, governed by random behavior. This basic mathematical aspect of a system indicates that for organisms in an ecosystem, the same thing applies. The gradual formation and continual drift of species represents an emergent order which has converted a great deal of the space of random inputs into self-organizing and persistent behaviors.

    Certain planets such as the Earth allow for chemical interactions to emerge into progressively more complex and adaptive behaviors because their environments are conducive to the existence of critically balanced order and chaos.

    I should add that the self-organizing behavior produces adaptations faster than random response does. As such it represents implicit knowledge, wisdom or information in the system that makes it appear to be more intelligent than a random system.
     
  17. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Kauffman and I agree on the scientific facts, but we disagree on many issues of interpretation. First I do not divide into orderly and chaotic regions(?). I consider the Laws of Nature determine the order of our physical existence, and variations in possible range of cause and effect outcomes is fractal based on Chaos Theory as describe by Gleick. I avoid the use of random, 'random behavior?' and chance, because it would only apply to the timing and degree of outcome of events, and not the long term outcome of chains of cause and effect events that are determined by Natural Law.
     
  18. sealchan

    sealchan Well-Known Member

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    The orderly and chaotic "regions" thing was my language. I was thinking about some of those diagrams, actually, from Chaos theory where they show a variable graphed against the value that a system comes to and showing that at a certain point their is a transition from a single state to bifurcation to chaos. This is all from memory so you may have a clearly understanding/memory of all this.

    Kauffman talks about the critical state of being poised between chaos and order that typifies, I think, natural systems.
     
  19. ecco

    ecco Well-Known Member

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    Thank for posting a synopsis. Many people in these forums post links and it quickly becomes clear that they do not really understand what they are talking about. You, on the other hand, obviously do.


    To here, I see little that would "transform how we think about evolution".
    However, there are parts...
    A system exists in a space divided into orderly and chaotic regions.
    Systems that can find this critical zone are stable and creative.​
    ...that, in context, sound like they border on woo.

    Your last sentence makes it quite clear that Stuart Kauffman has stepped over the line and is fully into woo. As such, I doubt his views will have any effect on how we think about evolution and consciousness.


    Perhaps you can point to something in his 1993 book The Origins of Order: Self-Organization and Selection in Evolution that has found its way into ToE.
     
    #39 ecco, Jul 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
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  20. Landon Caeli

    Landon Caeli What's your stoyle?

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    Why do you say that?
     
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