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Featured The need for Christ to die makes sense, and it doesn't

Discussion in 'Scriptural Debates' started by PopeADope, Aug 16, 2019.

  1. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    First, which you have not responded to, is the concept of the 'Fall' and 'Original Sin' are same throughout most of Christianity. The concept of the Fall and Original Sin indicate God made the mistakes that led to the Fall and Biblically the falt falls on the innocents Adam and Eve, for temptation in the Garden that they were set up for the Fall. The concept of 'inherited sin' adds to paradox that all humanity carries the stain and suffering from the Original Sin of Adam and Eve.


    I agree, but on the human and the nature of of our physical existence the evolving physical and spiritual existence is a factual reality[/QUOTE]

    This would lead to the unfortunate chain of events where Adam and Eve are guilty for the stain of Original Sin that infexts all humanity.

    As a scientist for fifty years plus I consider this a terrible analogy to justify sacrifice by humans to appease the wrath of God.

    This view of an analogy in the Bible lies at heart of the problem.

    Disagree completely. Unfortunately too many people believe God speaks to them today in too many conflicting and contradictory claims.
     
  2. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Does not explain God's responsibility, if it is so. for the sacrifice of Jephthah's daughter, regardless of the human failings of Jephthah. There are more examples of human sacrifice in the OT.
     
  3. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Makes sense and doesnt means doesnt make sense.

    The sacrifice is purely spiritual, has nothing to do with a priestly sacrifice
     
  4. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Biblically not true. The concept of sacrifice of redemption and forgiveness of sins in the OT was through sacrifice of animals, and sometimes human sacrifice. This was replaced by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

    Titus 2:14
    He gave his life to free us from every kind of sin, to cleanse us, and to make us his very own people, totally committed to doing good deeds. (NLT)


    Acts 3:19
    Now repent of your sins and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped away. (NLT)


    Romans 3:22-24
    There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (NIV)


    Romans 5:8
    But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (NIV)


    Romans 5:18
    Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. (NIV)
     
  5. FooYang

    FooYang Active Member

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    Yep, I tend to think the same. Although there is some sense of nobility of self-sacrifice but ultimately it is quite anti-climactic. He was supposedly crucified and now we're past 2000 years after his death and there is still sin, poverty and all that kind of stuff. If he died for our sins as mainstream Christian doctrines state, it's results have been significantly delayed.....

    I'm not opposed to it but Jesus' place in history feels more like the beginning of something rather than a conclusion - this is perhaps the most puzzling aspect of Christianity, at least pragmatically.
     
  6. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Then sins are gone, so why the hassle?
     
  7. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Sins are not gone.
     
  8. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    So what does your argument mean?
     
  9. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    the concept of a sacrifice is a human way of believing they are appeasing God(s), and nothing happens. Sacrifices do not achieve anything as far as God is concerned.

    Old Testament sacrifice is intimately linked to the New Testament concept which replaces the OT priestly concept of sacrifice.
     
  10. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    I don't believe so. In christian belief, the type that Im familiar with, the 'sacrifice' does not include all sins, in other words, it's conditional. Nothing like a priestly sacrifice at all, which is one sin, or specific sins, or such. Totally different.
     
  11. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    False, Biblically the sacrifice of Jesus Christ has the same purpose, and replaces priestly sacrific of Judaism. Priestly sacrifice is not necessarily for one sin. In fact this very very unlikely It is common for priests to make ceremonial sacrifices on holidays and special occasions to forgive the sins of the community in ancient times and today without animal sacrifice. .This ceremonial ritual offering without the sacrifice is called Karbanot.

    The only difference I can see is Christians claim that the one act of sacrifice of Jesus Christ is for all sins for all time, but that does not detract from the relationship, as described in the NT.
     
  12. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Who says all sins for all time?
    Not the Bible.
    The Biblical sacrifice is conditional, and it's only for believers. It does nothing for non believers.

    John 10:1-17

    'My sheep', in those verses, means only the believers.
     
  13. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    There may be differences between what Christians believe in terms of what sins are forgiven, but that is not the point. Even in Judaism forgiveness of sins is also conditional on such factors as belief and sincerity.
     
  14. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    Biblically, because of the sacrifice by Jesus Christ, the priestly sacrifice is not needed, for believers for all time.The intimate link is also the claim of of fulfillment and replacement of Judaism by Jesus Christ.
     
  15. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    If that is your definition of Judaism, sure. I guess. Not really.

    The sacrifice, spiritual sacrifice, must be estimated by James 1
    The
    Huh?
    Do you mean, it allows non jews in the Covenant? That' still conditional, and Judaism does that also.
     
  16. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    That is your perspective of the necessity of sacrifice for forgiveness of sins, and problematic belief in the Fall and Original Sin

    I said nothing of the sort, considering the Jewish or the Christian perspective. Actually the more liberal side of contemporary Judaism and Christianity extends the possibility of salvation to non-believers..
     
    #36 shunyadragon, Aug 20, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  17. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    No it isn't, those aren't my beliefs. Never were, where would those beliefs come from?
    Great
     
  18. Desert Snake

    Desert Snake ️️️️️️️️️️

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    Man where are you coming up with this stuff? The 'sacrifice' is spiritual, only for believers, and isn't physical at all. That's what I said, and it has nothing to do with 'original sin'.

    Try refuting what I write instead of peripheal oddball arguments and ideas.
     
  19. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    You may have your own personal believs concerning this, but nonetheless . . .

    The doctrines and documents of the Roman Church, Protestant churches, Orthodox churches. You are still evading the issue of the 'Fall' and 'Original Sin' in all this. The Fall and Original Sin plays a pivital role in Christianity, and the question of role of sacrifice in this.
     
    #39 shunyadragon, Aug 20, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
  20. shunyadragon

    shunyadragon Veteran Member
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    The crucifiction of Jesus Christ is a very very very physical act of sacrifice. It has everything to do with the fall and original sin, which you are evading.

    Romans 5

    13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

    15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

    18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

    20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, through Jesus Christ our Lord.
     
    #40 shunyadragon, Aug 20, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
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