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The need for Christ to die makes sense, and it doesn't

Spiderman

Veteran Member
So, the need for God's son to be crucified makes sense to me in the sense that suffering and dying for someone is possibly the best way to show them you love them.

For instance, if somebody gives me butterflies in the stomach and delightful feelings, I could be friends with anybody, and it would be easy to love them. I could incessantly show affection and words of praise towards them and it wouldn't mean anything.

Once I'm willing to suffer for them, then I am proving that I truly love them, because I stop receiving reward.

I'm not going to wear a crown of thorns for someone, be stripped down naked, humiliated, and scourged for someone, then be nailed to a cross for them, unless I really love them more than anyone, and find there to be a cause so beautiful, that it is worth such a sacrifice.

The crucifixion doesn't make sense either though, because God would not need it to forgive. He could simply say, "your debt is forgiven". But the crucifixion is a way to demonstrate true unconditional love, for a person would only want to make such a sacrifice, if the reward for making such a sacrifice was truly beautiful, and the suffering worthwhile.
 

1213

Well-Known Member
..God would not need it to forgive. He could simply say, "your debt is forgiven". ...

And I think that is the case in the Bible, because Jesus and his disciples had right to forgive sins, before the death.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this that speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" But Jesus, perceiving their thoughts, answered them, "Why are you reasoning so in your hearts? Which is easier to say, 'Your sins are forgiven you;' or to say, 'Arise and walk?' But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins" (he said to the paralyzed man), "I tell you, arise, and take up your cot, and go to your house." Immediately he rose up before them, and took up that which he was laying on, and departed to his house, glorifying God.
Luke 5:21-25

Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
John 20:23
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
What I do not get is that someone innocent and of omnipotence has to suffer and die for wicked sinners to be saved. Thats backwards and contrary.

Save them if you must, but torturing one's self does not make better people of the wicked, nor does it entitle them to be royal followers of the Allmighty.

I remember seeing the crucifix for the first time as a youth, and someone explained the story to me. The first reaction i had is , how cruel a world do we live in, that someone has to torture the innocent for the sake of the guilty.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
So, the need for God's son to be crucified makes sense to me in the sense that suffering and dying for someone is possibly the best way to show them you love them.

For instance, if somebody gives me butterflies in the stomach and delightful feelings, I could be friends with anybody, and it would be easy to love them. I could incessantly show affection and words of praise towards them and it wouldn't mean anything.

Once I'm willing to suffer for them, then I am proving that I truly love them, because I stop receiving reward.

I'm not going to wear a crown of thorns for someone, be stripped down naked, humiliated, and scourged for someone, then be nailed to a cross for them, unless I really love them more than anyone, and find there to be a cause so beautiful, that it is worth such a sacrifice.

The crucifixion doesn't make sense either though, because God would not need it to forgive. He could simply say, "your debt is forgiven". But the crucifixion is a way to demonstrate true unconditional love, for a person would only want to make such a sacrifice, if the reward for making such a sacrifice was truly beautiful, and the suffering worthwhile.
It satisifies both the vengeance and love of God. On one hand God demands retribution for sins but on the other hand He loves people to much not to forgive them if He can. So, dying in their place was the only way to satisfy both. This way everyone knows how seriously God takes sin and yet forgiveness is still available to them.
 

steveb1

Member
There was never any "need" for Jesus to "die for sins". For the simple reason that Yahweh had already set up a system of sin atonement for the Jews and for the Gentiles.

Jews received forgiveness through simple repentance, quite apart from making offerings or participating in Temple worship. Yahweh asked them to have a circumcised heart in preference to blood sacrifice.

Gentiles received salvation through practicing the Noahide Covenant, which is the Covenant that James, Jesus's brother, placed upon non-Jewish converts to the Jesus movement.

Thus, Yahweh - who guaranteed that his statutes are "forever", never to be usurped by Jesus, Paul, John or a "new" covenant - installed a forgiveness system, designed by him, that was to serve Jews and Gentiles forever, without replacement.

This is why educated Jews, then and now, realized that no human sacrifice blood atonement was called for, and why the Prophets never spoke of it. They didn't need it. They already had the insuperable promise of their God that Jews and Gentiles are to approach Him through repentance and the means he gave them for atonement. No self-sacrificing World Savior was, or is, necessary toward that end.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
It satisifies both the vengeance and love of God. On one hand God demands retribution for sins but on the other hand He loves people to much not to forgive them if He can. So, dying in their place was the only way to satisfy both. This way everyone knows how seriously God takes sin and yet forgiveness is still available to them.

This is an ancient barbaric view from the Neolithic and Bronze Age, of the necessity of sacrifice found in most cultures to appease a primitive view of God(s), For the most part abandoned in the iron Ige, civilization and after, except for most of Christianity clinging to an ancient paradigm.
 
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74x12

Well-Known Member
This is an ancient barbaric view from the Neolithic and Bronze Age, of the necessity of sacrifice found in most cultures to appease a primitive view of God(s), For the most part abandoned in the iron Ige, civilization and after, except for most of Christianity clinging to an ancient paradigm.
Ancient yes. Barbaric, no. Just because something is old that doesn't mean it is wrong. That's a modern point of view that is prideful. We in the modern times think we know it all and we look with contempt on the "primitive" views of our ancestors. But, we must consider that they could be right on some things and we could be wrong. Otherwise we've become too proud to be taught.

Even when it comes to technology and science we are only as advanced as we are because the people who came before are holding us on their shoulders. If someone put a modern person on an island by themselves with no civilization or tools they probably couldn't even make a toaster oven. A "cave man" from ancient times would have a better chance of survival than them and would actually have more useful knowledge.

My point is that modern mankind takes all the advances of their predecessors for granted. We aren't as smart as we think we are and they weren't as primitive as we often suppose.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
This is an ancient barbaric view from the Neolithic and Bronze Age, of the necessity of sacrifice found in most cultures to appease a primitive view of God(s), For the most part abandoned in the iron Ige, civilization and after, except for most of Christianity clinging to an ancient paradigm.
Besides my previous point. If God Himself is ancient then the truth about God should also be ancient. Meaning that people should have known things about God a long time ago since God Himself is ancient. Therefore, it's no surprise that ancient people understood things about God. It would make sense within that paradigm.
 

MikeDwight

Well-Known Member
I'd pass this up, but, I'm surprised I don't see it anywhere. This is an obsessive fulfillment of Scripture in the New Testament throughout. You should remember God tested the faith of Abraham right by asking him to kill his first son? God also killed the firstborn sons of Egypt if they were not saved. God specifically gave his son the Payment of sins. Leviticus shows the Payments of sin to Priests, were lamb burnt offerings, dove offerings and others. So the Only reason we hear that Christ is the Lamb, which is mean, I hate obscurity. He was a chosen offering to sin, the Sin of the world and his followers, he's the Advocate before the Judge upon your defendant pleaded case in trial, where God alone would convict even on original Sin.

Its like "Feed the Birds" on mary Poppins, I mean after 8 years I've come to the conclusion, "Look how the Birds do not have houses and God provides", to be a male figure? The female figure would be the tuppence meaning two pennies, meaning a woman who lives her whole life without earning, becomes the old widow at the Temple, who Christ comments, has given more than anyone with her two pennies.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Besides my previous point. If God Himself is ancient then the truth about God should also be ancient. Meaning that people should have known things about God a long time ago since God Himself is ancient. Therefore, it's no surprise that ancient people understood things about God. It would make sense within that paradigm.

Sacrifice in ancient cultures was not so noble including the OT that refers to human sacrifice, including Jephthah's daughter.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Ancient yes. Barbaric, no. Just because something is old that doesn't mean it is wrong. That's a modern point of view that is prideful. We in the modern times think we know it all and we look with contempt on the "primitive" views of our ancestors. But, we must consider that they could be right on some things and we could be wrong. Otherwise we've become too proud to be taught.

Never asserted that everything on ancient scriptures was wrong, but nonetheless sacrifice in ancient cultures is severely problematic, including human sacrifice in the OT.

It was already clearly described the problem of finding it necessary for God sacrifice of any kind to resolve problems with Creation like Original Sin, which is a paradox in and of itself. IF God is an omnipotent omnipresent Creator God would not make mistakes he would have to correct.

Even when it comes to technology and science we are only as advanced as we are because the people who came before are holding us on their shoulders. If someone put a modern person on an island by themselves with no civilization or tools they probably couldn't even make a toaster oven. A "cave man" from ancient times would have a better chance of survival than them and would actually have more useful knowledge.

My point is that modern mankind takes all the advances of their predecessors for granted. We aren't as smart as we think we are and they weren't as primitive as we often suppose.

Not the subject of the thread, but of course, can be discussed elsewhere. Something akin to the progressive evolving knowledge of humanity and the evolving spiritual knowledge of humanity of God. It is past time to give up ancient paradigms.

The world is not flat, nor does everything revolve around the earth, nor no crystal spheres.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Sacrifice in ancient cultures was not so noble including the OT that refers to human sacrifice, including Jephthah's daughter.
It was not God's will for people to make foolish vows. Jephthah could have prayed for victory in battle without making any vow at all. Much less one so foolish. Suffice to say that human sacrifice was not pleasing to God. If Jephthah had faith he would not make a silly vow. (Psalm 50:9-14)

God is beyond us and not in need of anything. If people will be righteous and pray with faith then He will hear their prayer. But, yet He has no pleasure in fools and He expects people to pay their vows.

God gives and takes away as Job said. Yet, Job blessed His name. Every person has a day to die and it's appointed by God. You can't keep your spirit back from leaving your body on that day.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
Never asserted that everything on ancient scriptures was wrong, but nonetheless sacrifice in ancient cultures is severely problematic, including human sacrifice in the OT.

It was already clearly described the problem of finding it necessary for God sacrifice of any kind to resolve problems with Creation like Original Sin, which is a paradox in and of itself. IF God is an omnipotent omnipresent Creator God would not make mistakes he would have to correct.
What do you mean by original sin? It may or may not be a paradox. People have different ideas about original sin.

As for mistakes. God made none. Did you know the death of Jesus on the cross and the resurrection were --according to the scriptures-- predestined before the foundation of the world?

That's not a mistake.
Not the subject of the thread, but of course, can be discussed elsewhere. Something akin to the progressive evolving knowledge of humanity and the evolving spiritual knowledge of humanity of God. It is past time to give up ancient paradigms.

The world is not flat, nor does everything revolve around the earth, nor no crystal spheres.
If anything evolves it's because it's imperfect. The knowledge that comes from above is already perfect and has no need of evolution. The things of this world will perish with the world. The wisdom of this age will perish with it. The point of knowing wisdom that is from above is to know who it belongs to and who can give it to you.
 

Samantha Rinne

Resident Genderfluid Writer/Artist
The Son came as full human. Humans die, so Jesus had to die.

This. Also, Jesus raised from the dead so we also can.

And alot of ppl are like "couldn't God just change this rule, if he's omnipotent?"

Because it's important that humans know this. Humans probably always were capable of rising from the dead, but were kept miserable under the thumb of oppressive governments. They were kept without knowledge of the truth of life and death.

27:50 When Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, He yielded up His spirit. 51 At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.
54 When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified and said, “Truly this was the Son of God.”

28:1 Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave. 2 And behold, a severe earthquake had occurred, for an angel of the Lord descended from heaven and came and rolled away the stone and sat upon it. 3 And his appearance was like lightning, and his clothing as white as snow. 4 The guards shook for fear of him and became like dead men. 5 The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid; for I know that you are looking for Jesus who has been crucified. 6 He is not here, for He has risen, just as He said. Come, see the place where He was lying. 7 Go quickly and tell His disciples that He has risen from the dead; and behold, He is going ahead of you into Galilee, there you will see Him; behold, I have told you.”
8 And they left the tomb quickly with fear and great joy and ran to report it to His disciples. 9 And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me.”
11 Now while they were on their way, some of the guard came into the city and reported to the chief priests all that had happened. 12 And when they had assembled with the elders and consulted together, they gave a large sum of money to the soldiers, 13 and said, “You are to say, ‘His disciples came by night and stole Him away while we were asleep.’ 14 And if this should come to the governor’s ears, we will win him over and keep you out of trouble.” 15 And they took the money and did as they had been instructed; and this story was widely spread among the Jews, and is to this day.

Note the tone of this. Why would it matter to the guards and the chief priests that Jesus's body is taken? Why tell a false story, when you could say nothing? Because there is no body, and more importantly a sealed tomb has the rock blocking it pushed away Superman-style. Because the temple curtain suddenly snapped, breaking down the separation between the public and God. Because not just Jesus, but other dead are raised. Because this event upends their authority, by effectively teaching people they have nothing to be afraid of from the Jews (and their Law) or the Romans (and their military). If the dead are raised among us, the powers of evil no longer have any sting. The Bible is Good News, but most people don't understand why. After all, it seems like life goes on, as dreary as before.

Until you realize that Jesus is not simply gone up to Heaven and out of the way where he can't bother any of these secular folks. Jesus is among us. Today. Before Jesus was born. Always.

Jesus is with us now and every moment
Did Jesus exist in the beginning with God? - Eternal Truth Ministry
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
This. Also, Jesus raised from the dead so we also can.

This is a belief of many Christians.

And alot of ppl are like "couldn't God just change this rule, if he's omnipotent?"

I consider the beliefs (rules?) concerning sacrifices, original sin ancient human constructs we should give up ancient mythology. God does not need to change rules(?)

Because it's important that humans know this. Humans probably always were capable of rising from the dead, but were kept miserable under the thumb of oppressive governments. They were kept without knowledge of the truth of life and death.

Raising from the dead is a belief of religions, and has nothing to do with governments.

Note the tone of this. Why would it matter to the guards and the chief priests that Jesus's body is taken? Why tell a false story, when you could say nothing? Because there is no body, and more importantly a sealed tomb has the rock blocking it pushed away Superman-style. Because the temple curtain suddenly snapped, breaking down the separation between the public and God. Because not just Jesus, but other dead are raised. Because this event upends their authority, by effectively teaching people they have nothing to be afraid of from the Jews (and their Law) or the Romans (and their military). If the dead are raised among us, the powers of evil no longer have any sting. The Bible is Good News, but most people don't understand why. After all, it seems like life goes on, as dreary as before.

Until you realize that Jesus is not simply gone up to Heaven and out of the way where he can't bother any of these secular folks. Jesus is among us. Today. Before Jesus was born. Always.

These represent human beliefs, and yes all the scriptures of all ancient religions may contain mythology and stories that are not necessarily true, such as Genesis.

Jesus is with us now and every moment
Did Jesus exist in the beginning with God? - Eternal Truth Ministry[/QUOTE]
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
What do you mean by original sin? It may or may not be a paradox. People have different ideas about original sin.

You are creating an unnecessary high fog index for a fundamental concept interpreted from Genesis, and the concept of sacrifice, which is reinforced in the NT as linked to the purpose of Jesus Christ. I will go with the by far dominant belief in the Roman, Orthodox, and Protestant churches

As for mistakes. God made none. Did you know the death of Jesus on the cross and the resurrection were --according to the scriptures-- predestined before the foundation of the world?



That's not a mistake.

Well the dominant Christian view is contradictory and conflicting with the concept of an omnipotent impotent Creator God, and based primarily on the mythology of Genesis, and a very problematic view of sacrifice including human sacrifice in the Bible.

If anything evolves it's because it's imperfect. The knowledge that comes from above is already perfect and has no need of evolution. [/quote]

I agree, but on the human and the nature of of our physical existence the evolving physical and spiritual existence is a factual reality

The things of this world will perish with the world. The wisdom of this age will perish with it. The point of knowing wisdom that is from above is to know who it belongs to and who can give it to you.

The problem is from the human perspective there are fare too many diverse, conflicting and contradictory claims for this to be the view form the perspective of God.
 

74x12

Well-Known Member
You are creating an unnecessary high fog index for a fundamental concept interpreted from Genesis, and the concept of sacrifice, which is reinforced in the NT as linked to the purpose of Jesus Christ. I will go with the by far dominant belief in the Roman, Orthodox, and Protestant churches
Well, I can't answer your assertion that there is a paradox if you don't get more specific than that.
ell the dominant Christian view is contradictory and conflicting with the concept of an omnipotent impotent Creator God, and based primarily on the mythology of Genesis, and a very problematic view of sacrifice including human sacrifice in the Bible.

If anything evolves it's because it's imperfect. The knowledge that comes from above is already perfect and has no need of evolution.

I agree, but on the human and the nature of of our physical existence the evolving physical and spiritual existence is a factual reality[/QUOTE]
There is nothing impotent about God. My belief is not that God is impotent. I believe God designed everything to happen just as it did.

Since you bring up nature as evidence about the character of God. What do you think of the cycle of life? The ecosystem itself is based on a system of sacrifice. Animals eat other animals so on and so forth. So all animals and plants in the ecosystem are eventually nourished by one another's sacrifice. If this system was --ultimately-- designed by God; then you have to admit that God does use a kind of sacrifice.

This also gets into the analogy that Jesus Himself used in John 12:24. In order to produce a new plant; a seed must in a sense die in the ground. This is a sacrifice. But it creates new life.
The problem is from the human perspective there are fare too many diverse, conflicting and contradictory claims for this to be the view form the perspective of God.
Exactly, that is the human perspective. This is why no one can know God or the things of God unless God Himself reveals it to you. Otherwise, we are all in a constant state of confusion or even delusion. The history of God dealing with humans is God in mercy reaching down to them in their state of delusion/confusion. He chose to speak through prophets etc. This is the way of God. My point is; He still is doing it.
 
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