The Nazi's,the Muslim Brotherhood and Palestine

[KatNotKathy]

What have you been labelling Israel as, i'm sorry i forgot, it doesn't matter because they're the bad guys.

I believe Israel has just as much a right to exist as any other state. I believe that Israelis are, as a whole, generally good people and I have yet to meet an Israeli who I haven't been able to get along with in a friendly manner. I believe that the oppression of Palestinians comes at the hands of a few, and that Israelis in general should not be directly blamed for it.

 

[darkendless]

Frustrated that the kids are taking such an unproductive way to respond, and disappointed knowing that the entire country will probably suffer as a result of a few.

So when we, the west see such provocative images are we meant to ignore them. Are we meant to continue to think that Palestine as a group is working towards peace through education?

Hardly. Who would have told these kids that the tanks they attacked with bricks belonged to an evil cause?

Its sad and frustrating to see generation after generation born into hate.

 

[KatNotKathy]

You talk about Israel using White Phosphorous. Is that the whole of Israel telling the government to use it? Gosh if you're going to call out my generalizations i'll do the same.

I distinguish between a state and it's population. The state of Israel used WP. The Israeli people in general do not. That is the difference. I have accused a single entity of doing something while you have accused an entire ethnic group as being terrorists. There is a difference.

I don't mind being called racist.

That's really for the best. Better to not to deny who you are.

 

[KatNotKathy]

So when we, the west see such provocative images are we meant to ignore them. Are we meant to continue to think that Palestine as a group is working towards peace through education?

Hardly. Who would have told these kids that the tanks they attacked with bricks belonged to an evil cause?

Its sad and frustrating to see generation after generation born into hate.

Nobody would need to tell them anything. They've seen Israeli tanks and bulldozers destroying their homes, schools, and hospitals.

 

[darkendless]

I believe Israel has just as much a right to exist as any other state. I believe that Israelis are, as a whole, generally good people and I have yet to meet an Israeli who I haven't been able to get along with in a friendly manner. I believe that the oppression of Palestinians comes at the hands of a few, and that Israelis in general should not be directly blamed for it.

I think Israel is forced into oppressing the Palestinians in fear of retribution attacks. Remember those bus attacks that caused the deaths of 100's a few years back? They have to blockage the West bank to stop the cowardly terror attacks.

I apologise for my generalization before but its hard for me to believe that so many people are born to hate Israel. I remember watching a documentary where the camera team walked into a local barber only to see a wall dedicated to Hamas and its fighters standing nexts to rockets and mortars. I wonder where those were heading?

 

[darkendless]

Nobody would need to tell them anything. They've seen Israeli tanks and bulldozers destroying their homes, schools, and hospitals.

Provocation like that is speculative at best. Where is the proof from an independent source?

 

[KatNotKathy]

Oh no doubt Hamas is a terrible organization and there is a legitimate threat against Israel out there, but I'd argue 2 things: First, your average Palestinian on the ground wants peace just as much as your average Israeli. There are nutters on both sides killing each other, but the difference is that one has a full modern military and the other has glorified bottle rockets.

If Israel wants to stop terrorist attacks they just need to make it so that nobody has any reason to support terrorists. As it turns out, keeping people in horrible conditions tends to make people more willing to lash out against those responsible.

"Forced into oppressing" is a ******** excuse.

 

[darkendless]

Oh no doubt Hamas is a terrible organization and there is a legitimate threat against Israel out there, but I'd argue 2 things: First, your average Palestinian on the ground wants peace just as much as your average Israeli. There are nutters on both sides killing each other, but the difference is that one has a full modern military and the other has glorified bottle rockets.

If Israel wants to stop terrorist attacks they just need to make it so that nobody has any reason to support terrorists. As it turns out, keeping people in horrible conditions tends to make people more willing to lash out against those responsible.

"Forced into oppressing" is a ******** excuse.

The alternative is bomb the **** out of the West Bank and they'll never have any problems ever again.

This all started because Palestine refused two states and went to war, including most middle eastern countries like Iran and Jordan, and they were humiliated in 6 days.

Israel captured a lot of territory, but they retreated. This is now the West Bank.

There will always be hatred incited by the minority that will never want Israel to exist. You cannot get rid of radicalism.

I'm not making excuses. I'm saying Israel compromised. It was either launch an offensive and level the West Bank or build a wall to keep the Palestinians out. SOmething you ignored earlier: Why does Egypt escape criticism for blocking its borders off from Palestine?

 

[KatNotKathy]

The alternative is bomb the **** out of the West Bank and they'll never have any problems ever again.

Yes, because genocide to the letter is totally acceptable under certain circumstances.

This all started because Palestine refused two states and went to war, including most middle eastern countries like Iran and Jordan, and they were humiliated in 6 days.

Yes, and that was stupid as hell. Should modern Palestinians have to suffer for it?

I'm not making excuses. I'm saying Israel compromised. It was either launch an offensive and level the West Bank or build a wall to keep the Palestinians out. SOmething you ignored earlier: Why does Egypt escape criticism for blocking its borders off from Palestine?

Why do you think those are the only two solutions? Are Palestinians just really violent by default and need to be kept separate? What you're saying is that the only two options are apartheid or genocide. Can you seriously not think up any other solution?

And fwiw, Egypt never escapes criticism from me or anybody I chill with

 

[darkendless]

Yes, because genocide to the letter is totally acceptable under certain circumstances.

Israel can take what it wants but it doesn't it won't.

Yes, and that was stupid as hell. Should modern Palestinians have to suffer for it?

No. But they need to help Israel control the fanatics causing violence. The choice is:
- educate children against terrorism
- send them towards Israel with a weapon and they'll die.

I'd prefer the first. Death is unnecessary.

Why do you think those are the only two solutions? Are Palestinians just really violent by default and need to be kept separate? What you're saying is that the only two options are apartheid or genocide. Can you seriously not think up any other solution?

And fwiw, Egypt never escapes criticism from me or anybody I chill with

Fanatics need to be kept separate or the whole situation will dissolve again and innocent Palestinians and Israeli's will die as a result. There can be no harmony until there is education on both fronts.

The real enemy is hatred born 60 years ago. Eliminate the hate and eliminate the need for death, the need for pointless war and the need for separation.

Our news only ever spoke of Israel cutting AID. I only knew that Egypt did it when i researched for myself.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Fanatics need to be kept separate or the whole situation will dissolve again and innocent Palestinians and Israeli's will die as a result. There can be no harmony until there is education on both fronts.

Yeah the problem is that Israel's method of keeping fanatics separate is causing thousands of innocents to suffer needlessly. Apartheid is just putting fuel on the fire and creating new fanatics daily. Israel needs to greatly improve it's public face among Palestinians if they want to be safe, and doing so is really quite simple. When you have one side building you schools and homes while the other blows them up and kills your friends, it's clear which side you're going to be on. It's not that tricky really, just stop bombing civilians. Indiscriminate bombs and missiles are a really bad way to conduct assassinations in crowded public areas.

Edit: The fanatics simply need to lose the will to fight. They are so damn certain that they're doing a good thing killing Israeli civilians because they see the same thing being done to them, but in much greater tolls. Your average terrorist doesn't care about the history of Israel's creation or the 6 day war or any of that. What they know is that in the present, their people are getting royally screwed by the Israeli government and they're ******. If they're given a decent quality of life they won't be so willing to throw it all away attacking people.

 

[darkendless]

Yeah the problem is that Israel's method of keeping fanatics separate is causing thousands of innocents to suffer needlessly. Apartheid is just putting fuel on the fire and creating new fanatics daily. Israel needs to greatly improve it's public face among Palestinians if they want to be safe, and doing so is really quite simple. When you have one side building you schools and homes while the other blows them up and kills your friends, it's clear which side you're going to be on. It's not that tricky really, just stop bombing civilians. Indiscriminate bombs and missiles are a really bad way to conduct assassinations in crowded public areas.

Edit: The fanatics simply need to lose the will to fight. They are so damn certain that they're doing a good thing killing Israeli civilians because they see the same thing being done to them, but in much greater tolls. If they're given a decent quality of life they won't be so willing to throw it all away attacking people.

Australian soldiers are in Afghanistan rebuilding their infrastructure and creating new oppurtunities for civilians. However, the fanatics still shoot at them, they still kill and wound or soldiers trying to help them.

I don't know if Palestinians are the same but if Israel were to provide them with something of an economy and basic necessities, i'm not sure it would work. This combined with ceasing bombing of Palestine still doesn't have the power to win over the Palestinians when they're so full of hate for the 60 years of war.

I honestly can't see a 1 state solution or a harmonious existance for either.

 

[KatNotKathy]

It sucks, but it takes patience.

If Israel were to start rebuilding infrastructure and ceasing blockades and bombings, there probably wouldn't be any immediate changes until public opinion changes over time. It's MUCH easier to hold a grudge against somebody when they're still acting against you, but a good deal harder to do so when they keep responding with kindness.

It's not perfect and there will likely be a rough period between the change of policy and the change of public opinion, but in the end Palestinians will have fewer and fewer reasons to support extremist groups.

When people shoot at American and Australian soldiers in Afghanistan, it's not because they're rebuilding things, but because they blew so much stuff up in the first place. Public opinion changes take time.

 

[darkendless]

It sucks, but it takes patience.

If Israel were to start rebuilding infrastructure and ceasing blockades and bombings, there probably wouldn't be any immediate changes until public opinion changes over time. It's MUCH easier to hold a grudge against somebody when they're still acting against you, but a good deal harder to do so when they keep responding with kindness.

It's not perfect and there will likely be a rough period between the change of policy and the change of public opinion, but in the end Palestinians will have fewer and fewer reasons to support extremist groups.

I agree.

However, i think our opinions differ on the matter of blockading. I think they must retain it to prevent the situation getting worse still. All the need is more bus/train bombing killing civilians. Obviously you think it should be removed. I think it should, but only after a marked decrease in terrorist activity.

When people shoot at American and Australian soldiers in Afghanistan, it's not because they're rebuilding things, but because they blew so much stuff up in the first place. Public opinion changes take time.

The reason i used an Australian example is because we don't have the planes to blow anything up Even then, should we be shot at for rectifying the situation?

 

[KatNotKathy]

I agree.

However, i think our opinions differ on the matter of blockading. I think they must retain it to prevent the situation getting worse still. All the need is more bus/train bombing killing civilians. Obviously you think it should be removed. I think it should, but only after a marked decrease in terrorist activity.

If there was any assurance that there would be a decrease in activity, the blockade wouldn't be nearly as offensive. The problem is that right now groups like Hamas have no reason to stop fighting, and the blockade is just giving them more support. They're throwing average Joe Palestine under the bus for their own goals, but because the blockade is causing even more directly-observable damage, they still get support. It's really pretty tragic and I would have no problem with the IDF taking out every last Hamas officer if they could do so without so much collateral damage.
Israel could probably even get away with keeping the walls and checkpoints if they actually let necessary supplies through them (and this goes for Egypt too).

The reason i used an Australian example is because we don't have the planes to blow anything up Even then, should we be shot at for rectifying the situation?

No, Aussies getting shot at is pure BS. I think the problem is that the guys shooting at them don't understand that it wasn't Australia that's been bombing them. For all they know, there's no significant difference between an Australian and an American soldier.

 

[England my lionheart]

Coninued from the OP:
You can view the Hamas Charter here:MEMRI - Middle East Media Research Institute

Bearing in mind the above history ,and that is only a part of it,how can anyone expect Israel to deal with these people and how can anyone support Hamas?.

Lets address the OP,the question isn't who's doing what to who

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yeah the problem is that Israel's method of keeping fanatics separate is causing thousands of innocents to suffer needlessly.

No. The Hamas commitment to the eradication of Israel, encouraged and enabled by the backhanded support of folks like you, is causing thousands of innocents to suffer needlessly.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Lets address the OP,the question isn't who's doing what to who

If Israel wants to defeat Hamas they're going to need a huge PR shift so that fewer Palestinians are desperate enough to join groups like Hamas. I think it should be noted that day-to-day encounters make up a significant portion of anti-Israeli sentiment among Palestinians, and that that can be easily improved.

The only alternative I could see would be a complete eradication of all Palestinians deemed sympathetic to terrorists, and then to repeat a few times for the new terrorists you create through the purges.

And as for modern Palestinians who support Hamas, they probably don't even know it's history. The education system there isn't exactly super.

 

[Nietzsche]

No. The Hamas commitment to the eradication of Israel, encouraged and enabled by the backhanded support of folks like you, is causing thousands of innocents to suffer needlessly.

Perhaps if Israel stopped trying to colonize areas that are not theirs, there would be no need for a Hamas?

 

[AxisMundi]

Coninued from the OP:
You can view the Hamas Charter here:MEMRI - Middle East Media Research Institute

Bearing in mind the above history ,and that is only a part of it,how can anyone expect Israel to deal with these people and how can anyone support Hamas?.

I don't support Hamas.

However, I also do not support an expansionist government such as Israel, who has, to date, ignored over 40 UN Resolutions, from those that established her borders to demands to let UN Inspectors in to see her nuclear arsenal.

Are Arabs innocent? No, but neither is Israel. There are no innocents in this conflict, including the US who continues to pour million in civil AND military aid into Israel.