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The nature of suffering

des

Active Member
I don't agree with this idea either, nor does it follow to me, that since certain holy people did it therefore others should. I would argue other equally holy and great people did not (for instance, I have never read of Martin Luther King doing this sort of thing).

I think that our personal suffering should make us more aware of others suffering. (I think this is the idea of the fast for the hungry). I do not agree that this is a necessary activity. I think we all have experienced sufficient pain that it *should* make us sensitive to others. If we are not sensitive we are just choosing to be deaf/blind to it or otherwise closing ourselves off from it. Or else perhaps we are sociopathic.

--des

Even if I accepted that Jesus intentionally suffered and died for our sins, which I don't, it still does not hold that our suffering is salvific. As I bet you would be one of the first to point out, we are not Christ.
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Even if I accepted that Jesus intentionally suffered and died for our sins, which I don't, it still does not hold that our suffering is salvific. As I bet you would be one of the first to point out, we are not Christ.

Actually, although we are not God himself, we are his real supernatural body connected to him and his suffering and resurrection and redemption(By Baptism and the Eucharist). This is made most real by the gift of the Eucharist. You are what you eat so to speak. We eat the real corporeal supernatural body of Christ and that is why we are the real supernatural body of Christ. Christ always had a intimate link with his body(Acts 9:4). We have become partakers of the divine nature.(2 Peter 1:4). Jesus himself told us that we Christians will and must suffer in this world dfor no servant is greater than his master. We are take up our Cross , and we must die to ourselves (Matt 16:24-28) (Which is the point of mortification like fasting), and it would be redemptive because any suffering we do, would be united to his suffering on the cross via.. through our adoption into him as Sons of the most high(Col 1:24) and his sharing of his sacrifice in the Eucharist.:)

I hope that helps! At least thats the 2000 year old Catholic teaching that Jesus gave us.

Peace to you in Jesus through Mary,
Athanasius
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Specifically, what kinds of things are you talking about? This is something that is so foreign to me. I'm having a really hard time thinking that God would want us to intentionally harm ourselves or damage the bodies He gave us.

We are not to harm or damage our bodies! This is not he fictional work of the davinci code. Fasting is a form of morification, also sleeping on the floor, or a hard surface and offering it up for someone else who is in pain in the world can also be a great form of morification. Kneeling while in prayer for 20 minutes or more ont he floor is another example. Both of the latter ones need to be approved by a spiritual director while the former doesn't. I hope that helps. :)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
We are not to harm or damage our bodies! This is not he fictional work of the davinci code. Fasting is a form of morification, also sleeping on the floor, or a hard surface and offering it up for someone else who is in pain in the world can also be a great form of morification. Kneeling while in prayer for 20 minutes or more ont he floor is another example. Both of the latter ones need to be approved by a spiritual director while the former doesn't. I hope that helps. :)
Whew! I am genuinely relieved. I know it's terrible of me, but I was imagining the Albino monk in the DaVinci Code. It just didn't make sense to me that you would believe it was okay to scourge yourself or something like that. By the way, what is the Catholic Church's position on these people in various parts of the world who insist on being crucified every Easter. I'm pretty sure they are Catholic, but it's generally in a third-world country or someplace very remote where this happens. I read about an instance of this every Easter, it seems.
 

zenzero

Its only a Label
Friends,
The single word is ATTACHMENT.
If one is attached with the MIND which in turn is attached with the body and so remains attached to sufferrings/happiness [opposites]
When the mind is seen as a seperate entity or rather when that awareness develops the mind gives away like light removing darkness then the attachment to the body too does not remin however since the soul needs the body it has to take care of it but not by indulgence of any extremes as that will show that the attachment is still there but in a differnt way.
Friends,
Get to the root of everything the root of all questiobns it remains one pointed. our very own MIND.
All efforts taught by all teachers are too see that mind once one becomes awake the mind slips away.
One needs to go deeper within and all answeres are available there books, sanghas and all would be better fruitful whence the basic fundamental goal is understood as then they can become true guides to show the various patrhs for each such individual who has the understanding a way that would best suit the individual.
Love & rgds
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Actually, although we are not God himself, we are his real supernatural body connected to him and his suffering and resurrection and redemption(By Baptism and the Eucharist). This is made most real by the gift of the Eucharist. You are what you eat so to speak. We eat the real corporeal supernatural body of Christ and that is why we are the real supernatural body of Christ. Christ always had a intimate link with his body(Acts 9:4). We have become partakers of the divine nature.(2 Peter 1:4). Jesus himself told us that we Christians will and must suffer in this world dfor no servant is greater than his master. We are take up our Cross , and we must die to ourselves (Matt 16:24-28) (Which is the point of mortification like fasting), and it would be redemptive because any suffering we do, would be united to his suffering on the cross via.. through our adoption into him as Sons of the most high(Col 1:24) and his sharing of his sacrifice in the Eucharist.:)

I hope that helps! At least thats the 2000 year old Catholic teaching that Jesus gave us.

Peace to you in Jesus through Mary,
Athanasius
No, it does not help. We are talking about a man who stood with lepers and the poor and other social outcasts. Who criticized those in power. Who said blessed are the meek. Yes, Jesus said that those who follow him must and will suffer, but he was talking about suffering for the sake of justice. The way that Dr. King was assassinated because he witnessed for those who are oppressed. Jesus was not talking about self mortification.
 

Runlikethewind

Monk in Training
To me, that's like asking if the sky is good or bad depending on the weather. It is what it is.

That is a good point. It does seem that the good or bad of suffering is how one reacts or deals with it rather that what it is by nature. I can't believe I didn't recognize that! Its like the farmer who thinks the rain is good because his crops need water and the beach goer who thinks the rain is bad because it ruined the day at the beach. This goes to everything that has been said about mortification too, inflicting pain on oneself is an approach to suffering and doesn't really effect what it is in it self. One could inflict pain on oneself in hopes that it will help their spiritual growth while another may do it because they are a masochist and get erotic pleasure from it. Same action of self inflicted pain in both cases but subject to different moral interpretations. Well done Rolling_Stone!
 

Rolling_Stone

Well-Known Member
That is a good point. It does seem that the good or bad of suffering is how one reacts or deals with it rather that what it is by nature. I can't believe I didn't recognize that! Its like the farmer who thinks the rain is good because his crops need water and the beach goer who thinks the rain is bad because it ruined the day at the beach. This goes to everything that has been said about mortification too, inflicting pain on oneself is an approach to suffering and doesn't really effect what it is in it self. One could inflict pain on oneself in hopes that it will help their spiritual growth while another may do it because they are a masochist and get erotic pleasure from it. Same action of self inflicted pain in both cases but subject to different moral interpretations. Well done Rolling_Stone!
Thank you.:) I remember even as a kid being amused by the weather reports. Sunny weeks, good; wet weeks, bad; many sunny weeks, bad. No matter what the "sky gods" did, there was no pleasing people. I just apply the same logic to good and evil. Even the Holocaust can be viewed as doing the whole of humanity some good (though certainly not the victims) in that it shocked people into the realization of what exclusivism can do in the name of a "higher ideal." (I know I will get some flak for this.)
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Whew! I am genuinely relieved. I know it's terrible of me, but I was imagining the Albino monk in the DaVinci Code. It just didn't make sense to me that you would believe it was okay to scourge yourself or something like that. By the way, what is the Catholic Church's position on these people in various parts of the world who insist on being crucified every Easter. I'm pretty sure they are Catholic, but it's generally in a third-world country or someplace very remote where this happens. I read about an instance of this every Easter, it seems.

The Church is against anyone crucifying themselves.
 

Runlikethewind

Monk in Training
Even the Holocaust can be viewed as doing the whole of humanity some good (though certainly not the victims) in that it shocked people into the realization of what exclusivism can do in the name of a "higher ideal." (I know I will get some flak for this.)

You might get some flak for that but I totally see your point. You can always look at the bright side of things no matter how dark those things are, there always seems to be some light in there and sometimes you really have to strain your eyes to see it.
 
This made me cry - I do not understand suffering in any way -- it makes no sense to me why some people suffer horrible things while others never do

In my own personal experience my Mom had diabetes since she was a little girl and she suffered and died a horrible death -- she was not a bad person and she didnt hurt people or deserve it -- first her kidneys failed -- then she had dialysis and she got nerve damage from it and had to walk with braces because she kept falling -- then her eyesight started to go -- then she has her leg amputated and the other leg was lost six months later -- she went completely blind in one eye -- then she had a massive heart attack but she survived only to be in chronic unimaginable pain -- then lesions started on her fingers and she knew she would lose her fingers or hands -- 3 failed kidney transplants and then she got a massive internal infection --- then finally one night as we watched tv in her room after i hooked her up to the dialysis machine she died right in front of me -- i tried cpr and everything i could but she was gone --

she only wanted one day to not hurt -- to not feel that pain -- i prayed and prayed for years for her to have one hour or one day of happiness -- my prayers were never answered -- it makes me so angry that it had to go down like that -- i am so hurt and sad sometimes and i dont understand -- how come God never gave her relief ? why wasnt i good enough to have my prayer answered? -- i would have given anything for it --- thats one of my issues and why sometimes i think god hates me

so to answer the question NO suffering is wrong and it makes absolutely no sense to me -- i think of all the suffering in Iraq and Darfur and places like that and i want to help the people or do something to stop it and i cant -- sometimes suffering can be horrible for the people who dont actually experience the physical pain too
 
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