The nature of suffering

[Runlikethewind]

The question that I would like to propose for discussion is whether or not pain and suffering are good or bad?

Do they have some kind of redemptive or salvific power? should pain and suffering be put up with, with patience and/or other virtuous behavior? Or should they be avoided at all costs? Or should one seek out pain and suffering intentionally like some form of corporeal mortification? (traditionally has been practiced by Christians and Muslims as well as some eastern traditions like Hinduism if I am not mistaken, someone can correct me if I am.)

Personally I think there is some happy medium here. I fast during lent, (or at least try to) which is not a serious form of suffering but then again I am not sure if I want to go around wiping myself. So some forms of mild corporeal mortification seem ok to me. I also think that they have some redemptive value and should not necessarily be avoided at all costs, but then again I take Advil when I get a headache, which is not putting up with it but trying to avoid it. Anyway, whatever thoughts you all might have on this subject are welcome.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

According to Buddhism, suffering is the result of our ignorance.



Oh, of course, there are subsets of causes, like our karmic conditions and our delusions, but it's our ignorance and our cravings that lead to the various dukkha phenomena.



The very fact that suffering even exists is the whole point of the First Noble Truth. Stepping back and looking at life with an objective attitude that sh** happens is a remarkable first step toward enlightenment. Wishing that it were not so is denying that we are a part of the Buddhist cosmology of this realm belonging in one of the desire realms of samsara.

Do they have some kind of redemptive or salvific power? should pain and suffering be put up with, with patience and/or other virtuous behavior? Or should they be avoided at all costs? Or should one seek out pain and suffering intentionally like some form of corporeal mortification? (traditionally has been practiced by Christians and Muslims as well as some eastern traditions like Hinduism if I am not mistaken, someone can correct me if I am.)

I believe they DO have salvific power when approached with Right View (which is one part of the Eightfold Path). And, of course, when experiencing the temporary pain of dukkha one ought to aspire to go through it with the utmost virtuous behavior.


As far as "seeking out" suffering intentionally, self-inflicted pain does just as much harm to spiritual development as pain intentionally inflicted on another.

Personally I think there is some happy medium here.

As do I. Buddha admonished the ascetics who sought out extreme hunger, pain, and harsh conditions with as much fervor as those who sought out extreme indulgence .



Peace,
Mystic

 

[PureX]

I think it's too broad a question to be useful. It involves a whole host of subjective value systems that few of us would agree on. Define suffering. Define good. Define not good. Good, how? Bad, how? All these aspects of the question imply values that have their own criteria.

 

[UnTheist]

Suffering is nothing more than a reaction to something you don't like. If you get stabbed in the leg, you will suffer from pain. If a loved one dies, you suffer from grief and sorrow. If someone hits you, you may suffer from anger and vengence. If you lose your iPod, you suffer from material attachment.

Suffering can be good and bad, but it is inevitable. Whether we are good or not, we will suffer.

Plus, sometimes I get a type of 'high' feeling when I suffer. I'm not sure what it is. It might be a burst of energy from a frightening experience, or just coping with it.

 

[athanasius]

The question that I would like to propose for discussion is whether or not pain and suffering are good or bad?

Do they have some kind of redemptive or salvific power? should pain and suffering be put up with, with patience and/or other virtuous behavior? Or should they be avoided at all costs? Or should one seek out pain and suffering intentionally like some form of corporeal mortification? (traditionally has been practiced by Christians and Muslims as well as some eastern traditions like Hinduism if I am not mistaken, someone can correct me if I am.)

Personally I think there is some happy medium here. I fast during lent, (or at least try to) which is not a serious form of suffering but then again I am not sure if I want to go around wiping myself. So some forms of mild corporeal mortification seem ok to me. I also think that they have some redemptive value and should not necessarily be avoided at all costs, but then again I take Advil when I get a headache, which is not putting up with it but trying to avoid it. Anyway, whatever thoughts you all might have on this subject are welcome.

The Church is very watchful of how people practice corporeal mortification. You must have a good spiritual director to guide you and you must not be
torturing yourself. Suffering is very Salvific as Christ has shown on the Cross or else the cross was in vain. The written word of God through St Paul says we share in Christ suffering and we should rejoice and offer our sufferings for the body of christ, the Church (Col 1:24).:clap Go Paul! Go God! Have a good fast!:yes:

 

[Runlikethewind]

I think it's too broad a question to be useful. It involves a whole host of subjective value systems that few of us would agree on. Define suffering. Define good. Define not good. Good, how? Bad, how? All these aspects of the question imply values that have their own criteria.

I left it broad on purpose because I was looking for different perspectives and did not what to limit the scope of the topic to a specific type of good or suffering. I would like to learn about how people approach this topic who might not necessarily share my own perspective on good, bad, or suffering.

 

[Katzpur]

The Church is very watchful of how people practice corporeal mortification. You must have a good spiritual director to guide you and you must not be torturing yourself.

Athanasius, are you saying that as long as you have a "good spiritual director to guide you," corporeal mortification is okay?

 

[Katzpur]

So some forms of mild corporeal mortification seem ok to me.

Well, I asked Athanasius, but I'll ask you, too. Are you serious?!!!! Maybe I'm totally misunderstanding both of you, but I can't imagine that God would be okay with our intentionally hurting ourselves -- even "mildly." What is it you actually meant by this?

 

[Runlikethewind]

Thanks for the insight into the Buddhist take on this question now I have more questions!

As far as "seeking out" suffering intentionally, self-inflicted pain does just as much harm to spiritual development as pain intentionally inflicted on another.

I guess I am curious about what methods might a Buddhists use in order to grow in discipline. What I am picturing in my head might be wrong but I am thinking about Buddhist monks living in a secluded monastery using some kind of self-inflicted pain in order to grow in discipline, then again maybe I have seen too many kung-fu movies, maybe I am thinking of the wrong kind of monk. I saw a documentary once about some monks who where praying or meditating late into the night. These where new monks and whenever one of them began to doze off a senior monk would come along and whack them with a stick. Which is not self-inflicted pain but it is pain used to grow in discipline. I guess I am just curious and don't really have a specific question in mind, maybe my problem is that I don't really understand Buddhism that well. Maybe you can enlighten me a bit more?!?!?!

 

[Runlikethewind]

Well, I asked Athanasius, but I'll ask you, too. Are you serious?!!!! Maybe I'm totally misunderstanding both of you, but I can't imagine that God would be okay with our intentionally hurting ourselves -- even "mildly." What is it you actually meant by this?

Don't get us wrong such things can be taken to extremes which is why Athanasius said that a good spiritual director is a must. The idea is to help one grow in discipline for one thing. I guess your question is one reason why I brought up the topic. I've heard stories about certain saints who threw themselves into icy water or thorn bushes when they faced certain temptations. There is a history of this kind of behavior, and I think it might be good for some in their spiritual growth, but not good for others. I am not planning on trying anything crazy myself and I think the Catholic Church does approve of it on some level, I think. I don't think you are misunderstanding, we are talking about inflicting pain on ones self for the purpose of spiritual growth. But to what level or degree or how much God would approve of this, I am still uncertain and am still trying to figure it out myself.

 

[love]

Many will follow Christ in suffering and pain. But what is of the body is not eternal. In some ways I believe that tribulations prepare the soul for God's plan. We all know the body is temporary. It gives out just when we think we have learned something.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Thanks for the insight into the Buddhist take on this question now I have more questions!


I guess I am curious about what methods might a Buddhists use in order to grow in discipline. What I am picturing in my head might be wrong but I am thinking about Buddhist monks living in a secluded monastery using some kind of self-inflicted pain in order to grow in discipline, then again maybe I have seen too many kung-fu movies, maybe I am thinking of the wrong kind of monk. I saw a documentary once about some monks who where praying or meditating late into the night. These where new monks and whenever one of them began to doze off a senior monk would come along and whack them with a stick. Which is not self-inflicted pain but it is pain used to grow in discipline. I guess I am just curious and don't really have a specific question in mind, maybe my problem is that I don't really understand Buddhism that well. Maybe you can enlighten me a bit more?!?!?!

Ah, you just described the monastic life of a Soto Zen monk. They are reknowned for their strict discipline for zazen meditation, which is meditation on "no-thought" or "no-mind." They basically seek to extinguish all traces of the ego through sitting meditation. Their reasoning is sound, since 1) meditation is one of the keystones of practice for a Buddhist, and 2) Soto Zen practitioners recall that Gautama Buddha himself sat motionless under the Bodhi tree until he conquered Mara and achieved enlightenment. They also remind us that Bodhidharma - the Indian monk who spread the Dharma in China and established what would become Ch'an Buddhism (Zen in Japan) - sat motionless in zazen for 9 years before his enlightenment.



I practiced Zen for several years (close to 10) before I began my practices in Vajrayana and the Gelukpa school of Tibetan Buddhism. So, I'm familiar with the expectations of sitting and doing..............NOTHING. I never experienced the formal trainings of having a Zen master walking around with a stick reminding us of our goal toward stillness LOL. But that kind of discipline is very common in that school.



Here in the West, it's also common to experience a certain kind of pain when attempting to sit in a lotus position for meditation when we are not generally used to sitting like that. It's the *Ow! My hips!* kind of pain.



Peace,
Mystic

 

[Katzpur]

I think it might be good for some in their spiritual growth, but not good for others. I am not planning on trying anything crazy myself and I think the Catholic Church does approve of it on some level, I think. I don't think you are misunderstanding, we are talking about inflicting pain on ones self for the purpose of spiritual growth. But to what level or degree or how much God would approve of this, I am still uncertain and am still trying to figure it out myself.

About the closest thing I can think of in my Church -- and it's really a stretch -- is that we fast one Sunday a month and donate the money that would have been spent on those meals to the Church. It's then used to support the poor. Fasting is more difficult for some people than it is for others. For me, it's extremely difficult. Supposedly, it's supposed to promote spiritual growth, and I'm sure it does for some people. So far, I can't say that that's the case for me.

 

[athanasius]

Athanasius, are you saying that as long as you have a "good spiritual director to guide you," corporeal mortification is okay?

Yes!:yes:

 

[athanasius]

St Francis of Assisi, A mystic and one of most profound spiritually persons in history(1st to recieve the stigmata), practiced mortification, as well as a long list of other saints and mystics. Mother Teresa also did from what I heard and St Padre Pio(The 20th century mystic, 1960's) who use to recieve visions of Jesus and Mary and bore several supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit(like mind reading, healing, and bilocation) also practiced it.

 

[lilithu]

Suffering is very Salvific as Christ has shown on the Cross or else the cross was in vain.

Even if I accepted that Jesus intentionally suffered and died for our sins, which I don't, it still does not hold that our suffering is salvific. As I bet you would be one of the first to point out, we are not Christ.

 

[BFD_Zayl]

a good deal of pain and suffering is needed for someone to fully understand and appreciate life.

 

[Katzpur]

Yes!:yes:

Specifically, what kinds of things are you talking about? This is something that is so foreign to me. I'm having a really hard time thinking that God would want us to intentionally harm ourselves or damage the bodies He gave us.

 

[earl]

As Mystic Sang'ha could tell you, the Buddha originally started his spiritual journey as an ascetic, perhaps not seeking to induce pain/suffering but certainly as per the Christian examples offered believing he could achieve enlightenment by forsaking his body. He did not achieve what he sought until he discovered the "Middle Way," as Buddhism is sometimes described-the middle way between giving into attachments and cravings and avoiding them like the plague. As Buddhism seeks to see the relative unreality of what we believe constitutes our identity-our transient urges, thoughts, feelings, etc. which drive our cravings and avoidances, asceticism would be as unelightened in their view as indulging them unchecked would be. I would think that in Christianity where it likewise is important to surrender the self to God, one would need to be mindful as to whether the self-mortification is serving God or simply serving our "self." But, then I believe we don't have to go looking for extra pain, it will come in its own time. Suffering is what we do with our measure of pain. take care, earl

 

[lilithu]

a good deal of pain and suffering is needed for someone to fully understand and appreciate life.

I believe that there is truth in this. In fact, the Buddha would never have become the Buddha had his father been successful in his attempts to shield him from the experience of suffering.

But I also believe that experiencing pain and suffering is not sufficient in and of itself to understand and appreciate life. What matters more than is how people respond to what they experience.

And I also believe, as earl said, that pain and suffering will be experienced. There is no need to go intentionally seeking them out.