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The Nature of God the Father - One on One Debate

Discussion in 'One-on-One Debate Discussion' started by Katzpur, Aug 21, 2005.

  1. Kowalski

    Kowalski Active Member

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    Well, let me commence by asking you a question. Now no man has seen God, so that anyone who claims that God is human in form is deluded. Moses, got to see a burning bush, not a man or anything resembling a man. Now apart from the good scribes who complied the Torah, where is the evidence for your beliefs. When I mean the Bible is ' dodgy', I mean that anything comes from Man is unreliable. Anyone can make claims based on a subjective experience.

    David Jenkins, ex-archbishop of Durham was skeptical about all the main tenants of the Faith, but it doesn't mean that the teachings of Jesus don't have value. Unlike you, some of us have feel we can and will question the accepted dogma. I believe Jesus was a man, not the son of God.

    My point about the AE's is this, there can only be one God, why does the Christian god have to be, the be all and end all.

    Cheers

    K
     
  2. Aqualung

    Aqualung Tasty

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    So are you essentially saying that, when formulating our beleifs about Biblical things, we must throw out the Bible as false?
     
  3. Kowalski

    Kowalski Active Member

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    In the main, yes.

    Cheers

    K
     
  4. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    You're wrong. God may appear to man infrequently, but He has appeared to human beings on several occasions. You may call Jacob, Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel delusionary, if you wish, but they did see God. I don't know how much more clearly they'd have to have stated it for you to consider the possibility.

    Genesis 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.


    Exodus 24:10-11 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.



    Exodus 33:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.


    Exodus 33:22-23 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

    Oh, for crying out loud, Kowalski, how can any Christian speak about God without using the Bible? I'm not a Bible inerrantist, either, but this thread is about the Christian God and what the Bible has to say about Him. I'm willing to admit that it's not perfect, but I'm not going to toss it in the garbage either. Just where do you suggest we get our information on God, if not from the Bible?

    Well, you and the ex-archbishop are certainly entitled to your opinions. Personally, I tend to agree with C.S. Lewis when it comes to the person of Jesus Christ. I have misplaced my copy of Mere Christianity, so I will have to paraphrase, rather than quote, him. Essentially, he said either Jesus Christ was who He claimed to be, i.e. the Son of God, or else He was the biggest fraud who ever lived. There is no other acceptable option. A great moral teacher, in other words, would hardly have made the claims Jesus Christ made about Himself.

    Unlike me? What do you know about me, except that I belong to a denomination you detest? You don't know how I got to where I am now. For your information, I grew up in a household where we were encouraged to question. My dad taught me from the time I was old enough to get his point, that I shouldn't believe everything I ever heard spoken from the pulpit. He told me to get out there and figure it out for myself. Just because I came to a different conclusion than you did, doesn't mean I blindly accepted anything. Is that clear enough for you?

    Your point is well-taken. Just not in this particular thread.

    I am really curious, though, why you call yourself an Anglican. From what you've said so far (both in this thread and in others), it appears you accept very little of what the Anglican Church teaches. Why on earth don't you look into Unitarian Universalism? It seems to be much more in line with your own philosophy?

    Kathryn
     
  5. Kowalski

    Kowalski Active Member

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    I was baptised into the Anglican faith, and have seen no reason to change that. That I question everthing is just fine with me. I have no idea what God is, what comprises God, and if indeed God has a thought process akin to a human being. Perhaps a more universalistic belief system would suit me better, for I am more close to Einstein in my thinking about God than any organised faith.

    I think all of the biblical references you quote are quite unable to be substansiated by any empirical evidence. In other words they mean nothing, if some unknown scribe composed these texts at the behest of his religious leaders at some unknown point in time, there is simply no way of knowing if they simply fabricated the whole story. Nowhere does Moses state that he saw God in the form of a man. You know that (Exodus3:4) God hid behind a bush when he called to Moses, why would God do that and later allow all seventy of the elders along with Moses and his brothers to look upon him ? As far as I am aware, no living human can look upon the face of God, if indeed God has a face. Also Exodus 24:10, seems to me rather glib, oh we just sat down with the almighty, no big deal, interesting that narrator cannot or does not describe the Almighty, only what was under his feet, was the observer blind ?

    And, you should recall, that the God you speak of, the God of Christianity is the God of the Jews. And further, would of remained so, had it not been for Paul,who had at least naunce to see that the Jews wern't going to wear Christianity. As to Paul's motives, who knows, maybe he had a breakdown and woke up converted.

    I might add that you know as little about me as I do of you. I wouldn't say I despise your Church, but rather I view the LDS as a return to the days before the reformation.

    Cheers

    L
    Kowalski
     
  6. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    You are right. There is no "empirical evidence" to substantiate much of what the Bible says. Those who accept it as true (or mostly true) must do so on faith. I fully realize that.

    You begin by denying the possibility that Moses saw God face to face and then go on to say that God hid behind a bush when he called to Moses. First of all, the scriptures don't say anything at all about God "hiding" behind anything. All they say is that Moses heard God's voice coming from within a burning bush. More to the point, do you believe the "burning bush" story? If you do, why? It can't be "substantiated by empirical evidence" either. If you don't, then why use it to support your position? So far, your comments have implied that you do believe in God. I'm not not why you do, though. Where is the evidence for His existence? The bottom line is that you just can't have it both ways. You need to either disregard the Bible entirely, and take it to be a series of fabricated tales written by men who were either insane or coerced, or have faith that it is the word of God.

    Obviously.

    Yeah, maybe. I really don't consider myself to be much of an authority on Paul's mental health, though, so I'd prefer not to speculate on this subject.

    I realize that, but I haven't attempted to tell you what you believe as you have me.

    Well that's got to be one of the more interesting interpretations I've heard in a long time. What we have in common with the Church in the days before the Reformation is anybody's guess. If it tied in at all to the subject matter of this thread, I might even encourage a discussion on the topic.

    Kathryn
     
  7. Kowalski

    Kowalski Active Member

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    Well, there can't be a winner in this debate, but at least an interesting exchanged occured, and I hope that others gleaned some wisdom from it all. The point I was making about Moses is that God whether within the bush or behind it, was hiding whatever God was/is from Moses and that seems to be key here. Whether it actually happened is a mute point, but as we are discussing the text, we'll assume that it did happen for the sake of argument.

    One the major stumbling blocks with the Bible is as I've related, lack of evidence, also we can consider that we do not know who and when it was actually written. You see, I have a little problem with subjective material. And when it comes to humans, humans cannot be relied upon to be wholly truthful. Take Koresh, was he really convinced he was the Messiah, does it matter even, all those TV Evangelists, were they just cynics or did they really believe Jesus walked with them?
    That they were all liars is apparent.

    Faith is just that, Faith. And that is neatly summed up by Paul ? in Hebrews 11:1-39.

    Thanks for your time and thoughts.

    Kowalski
     
  8. Green Gaia

    Green Gaia Veteran Member

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    If this is supposed to be a One on One Debate, then only 2 people should be debating. Otherwise this will need to be moved to another forum.
     
  9. ChrisP

    ChrisP Veteran Member

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    Feel free to move, I think it's a very interesting question Katzpur has posed.
     
  10. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Maize,

    For a long time, I couldn't seem to get any takers at all. Then all of a sudden I had two or three posters contribute. I eventually started another thread on the same subject. If you would care to close this one entirely, it's fine with me.

    For anyone who's interested, the new thread is called, "The Nature of the Christian God." It's under Same Faith Debates.

    Kathryn
     
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