The Nature of God the Father - One on One Debate

[ChrisP]

I'm not Christian but I studied the bible for 15 years of my life. and I believe that God has form/no form and is basically an entity that cannot be described other than to say every aspect of him is "quantum" i.e. on/off hot/cold sweet/sour at the same time.

 

[Aqualung]

why would you say that?

 

[Katzpur]

I'm not Christian but I studied the bible for 15 years of my life. and I believe that God has form/no form and is basically an entity that cannot be described other than to say every aspect of him is "quantum" i.e. on/off hot/cold sweet/sour at the same time.

Would that mean He is both wise and stupid, kind and cruel, honest and dishonest?

 

[ChrisP]

I believe something that has unlimited power, knowledge and understanding must be beyond our limited descriptive ability. I believe that when he stated he made us in his image, he was referring to two things:

- Emotions. On different occassions in the bible it is recorded that God loves us, he shows others compassion and, on occassion, is brought to anger.

- I believe that God is 1 being with 3 integrated parts. (yes the trinity, but not as most denominations know it) Like us in the fact that we are Body (jesus) Mind (Yahweh/God) and Spirit (uhhh... Holy Spirit ).

With reference to the latter point, he is one entity but three at the same time. Situations like this within religion are why I use quantum. There's simply no other way to explain other than to say he is indescribable or formless, and I think they lack the pointedness of God being more than one thing at once. And that's not necessarily only two things either.

 

[Aqualung]

oops. I accidentally posted in here without seeing it was a one on one debate. Sorry

 

[ChrisP]

Would that mean He is both wise and stupid, kind and cruel, honest and dishonest?

He created all those personality traits so he must understand them. He simply chooses to employ them uh... never .

 

[ChrisP]

oops. I accidentally posted in here without seeing it was a one on one debate. Sorry

Nm man, if Katz doesn't mind neither do I.

 

[Aqualung]

Nm man, if Katz doesn't mind neither do I.

well, she'll be saying what I'm thinking, but much more eloquently and understandably, so why bother.

 

[Katzpur]

I believe something that has unlimited power, knowledge and understanding must be beyond our limited descriptive ability. I believe that when he stated he made us in his image, he was referring to two things:

- Emotions. On different occassions in the bible it is recorded that God loves us, he shows others compassion and, on occassion, is brought to anger.

So we are created in the image of God's emotions, that when He said, "Let us make man in ourimage, after our likeness," He was speaking of His emotions? Do you believe that when Adam "begat a son in his own likeness, after hisimage," it was referring to Adam's emotions, too? Or do you believe that in this instance, it was saying that Adam had a son who was, like him, in human form?

- I believe that God is 1 being with 3 integrated parts. (yes the trinity, but not as most denominations know it) Like us in the fact that we are Body (jesus) Mind (Yahweh/God) and Spirit (uhhh... Holy Spirit ).

I see. This actually sounds very much the the Trinity most denominations know. How is it different?

With reference to the latter point, he is one entity but three at the same time.

So the Father is the Son and the Son is the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost is the Father?

Situations like this within religion are why I use quantum. There's simply no other way to explain than indescribable or formless, and I think they lack the pointedness of God being more than one thing at once. And that's not necessarily only two things either.

I'm sorry, but I'm just really dense when it comes to metaphysics. You'll have to help me out. Could you give me some references from the Bible that describe God as formless and indescribable? I believe that neither Moses nor Jacob would have described Him as formless. What do you think Moses meant when He said He spoke to God "face to face, as a man speaketh to a friend"?

Kathryn

 

[Katzpur]

Nm man, if Katz doesn't mind neither do I.

Who cares? I gave up on having a one-on-one debate a long time ago. (Your avatar kind of scares me, though! )

 

[Aqualung]

Who cares? I gave up on having a one-on-one debate a long time ago. (Your avatar kind of scares me, though! )

It scared me, too!

 

[ChrisP]

So we are created in the image of God's emotions, that when He said, "Let us make man in ourimage, after our likeness," He was speaking of His emotions? Do you believe that when Adam "begat a son in his own likeness, after hisimage," it was referring to Adam's emotions, too? Or do you believe that in this instance, it was saying that Adam had a son who was, like him, in human form?

I see what you're saying. To clarify: God created our emotions in the likeness of his emotions, we just don't have the capacity to control them to the point where we can manifest all of this complex set of feelings at the same time. I think the Bible was referring to the way a son is similar to his father in personality and physical likeness. I find it difficult to apply this to God and man as when we die, the physical is left behind as we go to join God with our spirits. As to our minds I have no idea. I would suggest (and it is only a suggestion) that they are simply a tool God gave us to reason, so that we can find him, and through him salvation.

I see. This actually sounds very much the the Trinity most denominations know. How is it different?

Difficult to answer. I try to think of them all as the same being representing itself in different ways, with each different way of representation also having it's own existence within the original being. Maybe one day I'll photoshop an image to describe what I see in my head but to be honest, words just fail me in this area at present.

So the Father is the Son and the Son is the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost is the Father?

I tend to see it more as they are all God acting in different ways, each part with it's own purpose. The spirit directs the mind, which directs the body, while the body provides a place for the spirit to exist in the physical world while providing sustenance (oxygen/energy) to the brain, enabling it to function.

I'm sorry, but I'm just really dense when it comes to metaphysics. You'll have to help me out. Could you give me some references from the Bible that describe God as formless and indescribable? I believe that neither Moses nor Jacob would have described Him as formless. What do you think Moses meant when He said He spoke to God "face to face, as a man speaketh to a friend"?

Kathryn

I'll start with Moses; I think you are referring to when he reached the mountain top at Sinai? It's impossible to know how God manifested himself to Moses on the mountain top, or whether he simply was not there but either manifested in Moses mind, or took Moses spirit away to let him understand what God wanted for his people in Canaan. I prefer to think of the "Burning Bush" though, where when Moses questioned God as to who he is, God simply stated "I am".

These days, I find the Tao te Ching (sans bhuddist and chinese influence) best describes it.

The Tao (God) is like a well:
used but never used up.
It is like an eternal void:
filled with infinite possiblities.

God is everything and nothing. Why because he created and breathed life into all there is. There is a part of him in every grain of sand, every living being, every burning star.

And yeah Metaphysics sux teh big one :149:

 

[ChrisP]

Who cares? I gave up on having a one-on-one debate a long time ago. (Your avatar kind of scares me, though! )

Hahaha yeah scared me first time I saw it. It's the cover of an album by a band called King Crimson (their debut from 1969 Court of the Crimson King). Messed up prog rockers.

The Space in my names for space cadet, the Snale is for, well, my stupendous lack of speed :bonk:

 

[Aqualung]

find it difficult to apply this to God and man as when we die, the physical is left behind as we go to join God with our spirits. As to our minds I have no idea. I would suggest (and it is only a suggestion) that they are simply a tool God gave us to reason, so that we can find him, and through him salvation.

Are you saying we're just little peices of god that are living here for a bit, and then when we die we'll go back to god and not be little fragments anymore?

 

[Katzpur]

I see what you're saying. To clarify: God created our emotions in the likeness of his emotions, we just don't have the capacity to control them to the point where we can manifest all of this complex set of feelings at the same time. I think the Bible was referring to the way a son is similar to his father in personality and physical likeness. I find it difficult to apply this to God and man as when we die, the physical is left behind as we go to join God with our spirits. As to our minds I have no idea. I would suggest (and it is only a suggestion) that they are simply a tool God gave us to reason, so that we can find him, and through him salvation.

I wonder... Can you think of one single solitary instance of how you might use the word "image" in a sentence and not be speaking of physical appearance? I've tried and tried to come up with one and can't. That's just one reason why I believe that the word "image," as it is used in the Bible means exactly what it means the rest of the time. The Bible also says that Jesus was "the express image of [His Father's] person." Obviously, Jesus had a physical body. How could He be the express image of His Father's person if His father had no form?

Difficult to answer. I try to think of them all as the same being representing itself in different ways, with each different way of representation also having it's own existence within the original being. Maybe one day I'll photoshop an image to describe what I see in my head but to be honest, words just fail me in this area at present.

I tend to see it more as they are all God acting in different ways, each part with it's own purpose. The spirit directs the mind, which directs the body, while the body provides a place for the spirit to exist in the physical world while providing sustenance (oxygen/energy) to the brain, enabling it to function.

Well, since I really didn't intend that this thread be another one on the Trinity, I don't think I'll pursue it at this point.

I'll start with Moses; I think you are referring to when he reached the mountain top at Sinai? It's impossible to know how God manifested himself to Moses on the mountain top, or whether he simply was not there but either manifested in Moses mind, or took Moses spirit away to let him understand what God wanted for his people in Canaan. I prefer to think of the "Burning Bush" though, where when Moses questioned God as to who he is, God simply stated "I am".

I suppose it's impossible to know if you simply disregard what the Bible says. But I have a difficult time doing that. It says Moses talked to God face to face. I see no logical reason to think that that wasn't exactly what happened.

Kathryn

P.S. Is your avatar your own artwork?

 

[ChrisP]

I think our spirits are little pieces of God's energy still connected to him, and one day we will be reconnected with him. With the point of life being to realise this.

 

[Aqualung]

Katzpur:
http://www.abc.net.au/goldcoast/stories/s1255632.htm

 

[ChrisP]

I wonder... Can you think of one single solitary instance of how you might use the word "image" in a sentence and not be speaking of physical appearance? I've tried and tried to come up with one and can't. That's just one reason why I believe that the word "image," as it is used in the Bible means exactly what it means the rest of the time. The Bible also says that Jesus was "the express image of [His Father's] person." Obviously, Jesus had a physical body. How could He be the express image of His Father's person if His father had no form?

I believe that when Jesus says he is in his fathers Image he is a representation of God's thoughts and abilities here on Earth.

It's not that I don't think he couldn't be humanlike, I just find it difficult to understand how something Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent would find the human form useful, pleasing or a good representation of his limitlessness. The human form is a limitation, Spiritually containing us. Something as limitless as the being/entity who can do anything could take the form of a human, but what use would it be to him. Noone will ever see it.

Also I think the translation of the bible through several languages over the years can make it difficult to understand. The New Testament was originally written in Attic Greek, which was the language of the scholars at the time. The word that has been translated to image may have a deeper meaning in Greek not present in English or perhaps two similar meanings which may alter a translation of scripture. I'm currently studying this form of Greek and so maybe once I understand it an answer will emerge (in a few decades ).

I suppose it's impossible to know if you simply disregard what the Bible says. But I have a difficult time doing that. It says Moses talked to God face to face. I see no logical reason to think that that wasn't exactly what happened.

I can't argue with you there, being raised as a Christian (Church of Christ I don't know what you call it in the states, might be the same), I understand that the Bible is the word of God and should be taken as is. Perhaps God chose to represent himself as something that Moses would understand to put him at ease and enable better communications.

Kathryn

P.S. Is your avatar your own artwork?

Good lord no. I WISH!!! I only have pretensions to artistic ability.

 

[ChrisP]

I have to get offline now and go somewhere in the RW (whereever that is, Taoism's messing with my head :bonk: ).

This debate has really got my thinking type juices flowing, Thanks Katzpur (Kathryn) and Aqualung, I'd love to continue it some time.

Cheerio

Chris

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur:
http://www.abc.net.au/goldcoast/stories/s1255632.htm

Oh well! Duh! Ask me if I'm stupid. Never mind. Just ask me if I'm old.