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The Myth of Spiritual Death

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by sandy whitelinger, Mar 9, 2005.

  1. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    Sandy, your comments on Revelation just shows how your mind has been corrupted. Jesus identified these people as His. For you to say or imply, "they were never saved" makes you know more about them than Jesus knew. I ask you again, "Can one who has his or her name written in the Book of Life have that name removed?" Jesus clearly taught by the use of implication they could. If you wish to get in the discussion of "Once Saved Always Saved" there is a thread for that. The subject is "Spiritual Death". What you must prove and so far have not done it is that, "the rejecting of Christ is the only sin that will send a person to hell." You must prove and have not yet done so that "spiritual death" is a false concept. A number of passages have been produced by myself and other you have refused to answer. When Paul was speaking of "widows" he wrote "she that giveth herself to pleasure is dead while she liveth" (I Timothy 5:6) Now tell me "teacher", what is it about her that is dead? If not "spiritual death" and it can't be "physical death", WHAT DEATH IS IT?
    prosecutor

    Prosecutor
     
  2. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Golly Pros, here is the text. Point out where it says those are His:
    Revelation 3:1-6 KJV:
    "[1] And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
    [2] Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
    [3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
    [4] Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
    [5] He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
    [6] He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Perhaps you refer to verse 4? Perhaps you are having some trouble distinguishing which verses refer to the saved and which refer to the lost? Are you going to ignore that your original premise with this passage calls for salvation by works?

    That you refuse to accept John 3:17-18 as being true pretty much precludes any futher proof. Anything else you or the esteemed style policeman, NetDoc, present is to engage in his asserted circular reasoning based on the false premise that John 3:17-18 doesn't apply.

    Now "student" let me ask you this; is a saved widow who has pleasure in danger of judgement?

    finally, as I've asked before, where is the definitive statement that states sin in general condemns anyone to the lake of fire.

    As for the rest of your prattle I've answered it and tire of repeating myself to you.
     
  3. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Prosecutor,

    Did you see an answer to your question? Did you see any proof to the assertion of a circular argument? Neither did I.

    Your's truly: the out of style, "Style Police" :D
     
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  4. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    NetDoc it is clear that Sandy has no real understanding of Bible interpretation. It is Bible 101 in determining that the seven churchers of Asia were Christ's people. She doesn't understand who make up the church. No, she made no attempt to answer how the "widow was dead while she liveth" but rather followed with another question about a "saved widow".

    Sandy, I also tire of your refusal to deal with simple points. Answer my question Sandy. "What is it about the widow that was dead?" (I Timothy 5:6)
    Prosecutor
     
  5. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    Sandy, you can't have salvation without works. The Bible teaches of two types of works. One has to do with activity from which a person could say, "God owes me for this or that." None of us can "earn" salvation. This is the work that is condemned. The other type of "works" has to do with obedience.
    cf. Ephesians 2:10 Even "faith" is a work. (John 6:27-29) A "faith" that "has not works is dead, being alone." (James 2:17) Until you can see that there are "works excluded" and "works included" when it comes to salvation, you will continue to be confused about the subject.
    Prosecutor
     
  6. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Pros, there is a difference between pre-salvation works and post-salvation works. First it is not your faith that saves you ie: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves..." Ehp. 3:8. Notice the semi-colon, this means that the "not of yourselves" futher adds clarification to the previous part. There ore neither the grace nor the faith is of yourself, it is from God.

    Showing no works after a supposed salvation means that the professed saved person is not saved.
     
  7. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    Sandy, the passage in Eph.2:8-10 is not teaching as you imply, "we do nothing to get salvation; it is all of grace." The "not of yourselves" has reference to a man-made scheme or plan of salvation. You can't be saved without "faith". You can't benifit from God's grace without faith. When Paul was giving a recounting of his own salvation he poited out that he was instructed to "arise and be baptized, washing away your sins" (Acts 22:16) The verb "be baptized" is middle voice; literally "get yourself baptized." Someone along the way has really messed with your mind about grace. Salvation can never be realized without the action of the human being. Jesus said, "Except you believe I am he, you shall die in your sins" (John 8:24) Now tell me Sandy, "Is this belief the action of the person or the action of God"?
    Prosecutor
     
  8. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    Sandy, while I know you enjoy "running all of these rabbits", please answer what death Paul had in mind concerning that widow in I Timothy 5:6. Are you Jewish? I ask this because this passage as well as others that have been presented by me, you keep observing the "Passover."
    Prosecutor
     
  9. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    Sandy must be trying to get some help in answering my question on I Timothy 5:6. Sandy, if you are out there, why not just admit you were wrong and let's end this here. I have been wrong over the years on a number of religious issues. Yet you learn so much from your mistakes. It makes you stronger not weaker.
    Prosecutor
     
  10. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    I guess Sandy's no answer, is her answer. Debate over. Truth has prevailed.
    Prosecutor
     
  11. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    ** MOD POST **

    Personal attacks and bickering are not allowed.

    I had to delete a few posts.... future rule violations will result in additional member warnings.
     
  12. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Proverbs 10:11 The mouth of the righteous is a fountain of life, but violence overwhelms the mouth of the wicked. 12 Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs.

    Revealing is a good word here. As a Christian, I find this place simply amazing, and apologise for those who claim to be Christian and yet display little tolerance for the opinions of others. It's not how my Lord wants us to act.
     
  13. Bick

    Bick Member

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    Fellow students of the Bible; the use of a good concordance, interlinear Greek-English NT, lexicon, etc can help so much in unraveling difficult passages. The account of Adam's sin and the resulting penalty used to confuse me too. For the AV, and many others say, "in the day you eat, you shall surely die" or something similar. And, since Adam didn't die that day, he must have died spiritually. Right? This bothered me, because I discovered where "spiritually" was used, in the NT, it meant generally, to have more, or be lead by the Spirit.

    And a study on "death" showed me it could be interpreted as "literal" or "figurative".

    OK, back to Genesis. In Gen.2"16,17, the words in the original are doubled for emphasis. From Young's Literal Translation, "And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, ' Of every tree of the garden, eating thou dost eat; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it----dying thou dost die' ".

    The dying process started in Adam, but he didn't die until he was 930. While men lived long years before the flood, they all died. And all humanity is dying. Even babies who have never sinned. Because we are part of Adam.
    Bye for now, Bick
     
  14. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    It's way easy to use a good concordance etc. etc. to justify your opinion. In actuality, When we sin we are seperated from God.

    Isaiah 59:1 Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save,
    nor his ear too dull to hear.
    2 But your iniquities have separated
    you from your God;
    your sins have hidden his face from you,

    so that he will not hear.
    NIV

    Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. NIV

    Colossians 3:1 Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. NIV

    Ephesians 2:
    1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. NIV

    Finally, let me share one last scripture and carefully consider the emboldened part:

    Romans 6:
    11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace. NIV
     
  15. BruceDLimber

    BruceDLimber Well-Known Member

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    Oh, really?

    You've never heard of "Let the dead bury the dead," huh?

    Peace,

    Bruce
     
  16. angellous_evangellous

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    That's not good news.

    This could be the worst excuse for biblical interpretation that I have ever seen.
     
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