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The Myth of Spiritual Death

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by sandy whitelinger, Mar 9, 2005.

  1. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Prosecutor, you are mistaken as to what I said I could prove. Why not go back to my original post and re-read it. The myth is that sin leads to condemnation and hell. That is not a provable point by scripture.

    My assertion that only rejection of Jesus leads to condemnation and hell were backed up by scripture. So far neither you nor nor Net have neither adressed or disproved, by using scripture, what I asserted.

    I am not interested in opinion, as far as proving scripture is concerned, nor am I interested in the Kabala's view on Adam. I use the Bible to prove Biblical points.
     
  2. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Romans 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

    II Peter 2:2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)-- 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12 But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish. 13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you. 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed--an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Beor, who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey--a beast without speech--who spoke with a man's voice and restrained the prophet's madness. 17 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity--for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

    I don't think you can get any clearer than this without simply ignoring these scriptures.
     
  3. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    I see what you are saying. Here are some passages to consider though:

    Matthew 8:18-22 18 And when Jesus saw great multitudes about Him, He gave a command to depart to the other side. 19 Then a certain scribe came and said to Him, "Teacher, I will follow You wherever You go." 20 And Jesus said to him, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head." 21 Then another of His disciples said to Him, "Lord, let me first go and bury my father." 22 But Jesus said to him, "Follow Me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

    Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
    And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

    Romans 8:10-16 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

    1 Corinthians 15:20-34 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.

    1 Corinthians 15:35-50 35 But someone will say, "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?" 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 37 And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain--perhaps wheat or some other grain. 38 But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of animals, another of fish, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies and terrestrial bodies; but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." F51 The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
     
  4. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    Sandy, I can both read and understand what is written. You just spoke out of both sides of your mouth in your last response. You said "the myth is that sin leads to condemnation and hell. That is not a provable point by scripture." Then you wrote, "only rejection of Jesus leads to condemnation and hell." Sandy is "rejecting Jesus sinful"? If you say, "Yes", then you have a case of "sin leading to condemnation and hell." If you say "No", then rejecting Jesus is not sinful is it? And if it is not sinful, how is one condemned to hell? Sandy you problem appears to be that you don't even know the definition for sin. What passage do you use, since you use the Bible, to define "sin"? I just want to see if you even know what sin is.
    Prosecutor
     
  5. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Netdoc, are you trying to say that because angels sinned and were sent to hell that man can be also? There are some problems with that. One, technically, hell is a place that is not reserved for men. The hell that is commonly refered to that men think they are going is really the lake of fire. Reread your scripture and you will see that the hell mentioned is where the angels that sinned await judgement.

    Oracle, make a point please as to what you are trying to say with those scriptures. I have an idea but I want to hear it from you before commenting.

    Limbo, you are just offering your opinion. It in no way refutes the scriptures that I offererd to say that Adam was saved before he ate the fruit, therefore he could not lose his salvation.

    For both Pros and Limbo, Pros you are correct and I miswrote. There is only one sin that will send you to hell (the lake of fire) and that is the rejection of Jesus Christ. John 3:17-18 is very clear about that and there are no other scriptures that state man "dies spiritually" (or is condemned to the lake of fire) because of sin in general. This is also an indirect proof that Adam was saved before the eating of the fruit. It is clear that Jesus was in the garden with Adam and that Adam had not rejected Him or Adam would have committed a transgression before the eating of the fruit.
     
  6. oracle

    oracle Active Member

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    People believe what they want to believe.
    I think the real condemnation is when people don't celebrate communion when they should be celebrating it all the time! :jam: Bring out the kegs of wine!
     
  7. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    Sandy, I would like to ask you to present your objective evidence that Adam was saved before he ate of the forbidden fruit. You will have to consider the following: (1) In order for Adam to be saved, he would have to be saved from something. (2) What trangression (sin) did Adam commit before he ate of the forbidden fruit which would require the need of a saviour?
    Prosecutor
     
  8. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Go back and read my original post and tell me what you don't understand, I'll be glad to clarify.

    Adam was saved from condemnation.

    Reconsider this in light of John 3:17-18 and what I have already said. If you are still having trouble I'll be glad to help your confusion.
     
  9. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    You made no argument in your original post, Sandy. Your attempt to use the expression of Adam being "the son of God" to prove he could not be lost is not even close to its meaning. What is under discussion is "the family tree." Adam had no earthly parents but was created from the dust of the earth by God himself. (Genesis 2:7) The passage in Luke is about "genealogy" and nothing else. Also Sandy if you will note that the word "son" is in italics. Literally it reads, "of Enos, of Seth, of Adam, of God." Now again, "IDENTIFY THE SIN OR SINS ADAM WAS GUILTY OF BEFORE TAKING OF THE FORBIDDEN FRUIT WHICH REQUIRED HE NEEDED A SAVIOUR." John 3:17-18 is of no help to your original post.
    Prosecutor
     
  10. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Pros, Pros, stop working so hard. What else does being the "son of God" refer to but geneology? I wasn't aware I was going to have to teach you so much Bible. But if I must, when I get some time, I'll educate you on what being a son of God means.

    John 3:17-18 has everything to do with Adam's situation. He accepted Christ in the garden which means that he was not condemned. Should he have rejected Christ before eating the fruit Adam would have commited the sin of rejecting Christ and we would have read about that as being the first sin. Death passed on to Adam because he had the knowledge of good and evil and could not live forever. After death is judgement. What we are judged on is our acceptance or rejection of Christ.

    The problem you are having is that you believe sin condemns someone to hell. It is only the rejection of Christ that condemns. When you percieve the scriptures from that point the text makes perfect sense without having to interpret. If sin condemned us then everone would still be condemned because even after salvation sin is still commited.

    The reason "son" is in italics is that there is no specific word in the Greek present but is implied in the meaning. Translating into English requires adding the word son to complete the Greek meaning.
     
  11. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    To sin means to reject Jesus. Your logic is very twisted Sandy. You shouldn't be so conescending in order to cover that up. It's not nice and destroys meaningful dialogue.
     
  12. prosecutor

    prosecutor Member

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    So you have Adam accepting Christ in the garden before Christ died on the cross for the salvation of anyone and you are going to teach me? I don't know what educational well you have been drinking from but whatever it is has sure corrupted your thinking. I asked you earlier to define sin. You don't even seem to know that "sin is the transgression of law." (I John 3:4) Where there is no law, there is no sin. (Romans 4:15) To make a statement that no sin condemns anyone to hell other than that of rejecting Christ is Bible ignorance at its worst. To the church at Sardis, Jesus
    condemned them for "being dead" resulting in "none of their works being perfected before God."
    (Revelation 3:1-3) He told them to repent or else. To those in Sardis that "had not defiled their garments", He told them that He "would in no wise blot their name out of the book of life" (4-5).
    To have ones name removed from the book of life would result in being cast into the lake of fire
    (hell) 20:15. Sandy, did those at Sardis whom Jesus told to repent, commit some sin that would cause them to have their named removed from the book of life if they did not repent? Also was their sin in no loger believeing in Christ or something else?

    Prosecutor
     
  13. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    My apologies for taking so long to respond. I hope everyone is still awake.

    Thanks Netdoc for that bit of non-condescending and meaningful dialogue. Maybe you could add to the dialogue by pointing out the twisted logic, if you can! Maybe you just have problems reading the scripture I offered the way it was wrote instead of extemporizing other passages to mean what they don't. Hummmm?

    So tell us, Pros, how else do people get saved?

    Thanks again for adding to my argument. Continue with that line of Romans thought: "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." Romans 5:13-14 KJV So death was still from Adam to Moses which futher backs up Genesis 3:22. Mankind was kept from theTree of Life lest he eat of it and live forever.

    And to continue in Romans: "(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)" Romans 2:13-15 KJV.

    I believe this justifies that all are sinners and that death could pass unto all men whether they fell under the Mosaic law or their own law.

    No Pros, clean garments come from salvation: "I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation...." Isa 61:10a KJV

    Those with inadequate works are not saved ("Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt 7:22-23 KJV) as well as those with dirty garments. So it is not a matter of no longer believing in Christ but never have believed in the first place.

    Maybe you are trying to pass off salvation by works? That is the only way that passage from Revelation will prove your point.
     
  14. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Well time to unsubscribe from this thread. Call me when you get an open mind!
     
  15. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    I am a little behind on this subject and I must apologize for my insinuations,
    I only question one thing I guess, where do think the sinners wil go,and what will be there treatment
    Where was adams destination when he was cast from the garden,was he still in fellowship with God,if so why was he cast out, was he not cast from God's presence and banished from the garden and prevented from partaking from the tree of life,
    Please just look up the word "hell "and find where it is used
    Understand what the word death means in the greek, and apply it yourself
    Is that not what happens if we sin against God, the soul that sins shall perish,where do they perish,????? the wages of sin is death, what is death,
    John 15 if we do not abide with Christ we are cut off thrown in to the fire and burned,
    James 2, God threw the angels that sinned into HELL, how wilL not he also deal with those who sin.
    Please read Matt 5:27 - 30 it's better to cut your hand of if it cause you to sin, then enter hell with you whole body ,What is Jesus allude to here by using this illustration
    Luke12:5, ...says don't worry about him who can kill the body,after can do nothing else,but I tell you worry about him who after he kills has the power to cast into hell
    Heb 10:27 ...fiery indignation that will devour the enimies od God

    What will be the outcome for those who sin, what is death to you ???
     
  16. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Roli, go back to Genesis 3 and you will see that banishment from the garden was a consequence and not a punishment for partaking of the fruit. The punishment was to toil in work for Adam and sorrow in childbirth for Eve. Nowhere was condemnation to hell mentioned.

    I understand that hell is not the destination for the lost but the lake of fire is. I use hell in that light because it is the common usage.

    After death is judgement. We are judged according to our acceptance or rejection of Christ. Reread John 3:17-18.

    NetDoc, so you have nothing of consequence to add, only another insult. My mind is open to anything of consequence you might have to offer. Sorry if I shot down Prosecutor by using the proper application of scripture. You on the other hand only offer your own opinion. G'bye.
     
  17. roli

    roli Born Again,Spirit Filled

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    (quote) Sandy Whitelinger
    Roli, go back to Genesis 3 and you will see that banishment from the garden was a consequence and not a punishment for partaking of the fruit. The punishment was to toil in work for Adam and sorrow in childbirth for Eve. Nowhere was condemnation to hell mentioned.(quote)

    Would that not be a light sentence to toil in work for disobeying God's word, (slap on the wrist)
    That goes against his whole word and Jesus teaching of torment in hell,
    James says if he cast the angels into hell, how much more for those who disobey his word
    Matt 5 or 6 Jesus teaches about hell, being cast into hell for sin,one place he mentions in Rev, lake of fire,but hell is taught,not the most favorite subject and almost seldom mentioned or talked about
    So if I have inherited Adam's sin, as Rom states and physical death follows, How is my spiritual condition affected.
    Why does Jesus say you must be born again, Am I declared righteous or unrighteousness for sin
    Am i not condemned to hell ,lost and left dead in my sins, as the bible declares,or only to hard work as a punishemnt. ???????????
    So are you saying, Adam never spiritually died even though he sinned against God.

    If my inherited sin banishes me from God's presence, are you actually saying my punishment means I just have to work hard, sounds like religious practices which earn salvation

    What in fact is banishment if it is not punishment Sandy, is this a form of word play.
    Adam's position was that he was free,he had ownership of all the earth, he walked and had fellowship with God, Adam was in God's will, I believe,but when he disobeyed that automatically changed his position.
    The consequences were more then toil it affected and altered not only his position with God but the condition of his physical and spiritual state, which was death for his violation,that inturn changed his positon with God where he was cast from his presence, and prohibited to partake of the tree of life.
    Where is he left, the word does not say how he or if he repented.
    So he was cast out, sentenced to death, prohibited from eternal life, and forfeited authority over the earth to satan, as satan did become the god of this world.
    That sounds like through punishment to me
     
  18. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    For those who have made it thus far in this circular dialogue, please go back to post #5. The Scripture states without equivocation that WE WERE DEAD. Obviously, since our physical hearts are still beating the author is referring to our Spirit, which was indeed dead.
     
  19. sandy whitelinger

    sandy whitelinger Veteran Member

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    Roli, please cite those exact scriptures for me please, then I'll address them.

    Netdoc, I thought yousaid you were going to go away. At least you didn't offer an insult this time. that's progress. It is your reasoning, though, that is circular, and is based on false assumption.
     
  20. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Unfortunately, you have failed to show the "circularity" of my reasoning, and it's unfortunate that you refer to the scriptures as a "false assumption" (please read post #5 for clarification).

    Go away? You might like the truth to go away, but I am still here. Save your condescension for someone else.
     
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