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Featured The mother of Jesus

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by JJ50, Jun 29, 2019.

  1. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Well-Known Member

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    How could you even ask? Do you think unplanned pregnancy then was a risk free event?
     
  2. JJ50

    JJ50 Well-Known Member

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    Hmmmmmmmmmm!
     
  3. pcarl

    pcarl Well-Known Member

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    Catholic prayer is always addressed to the Father in the name of Jesus, through the Spirit.
    As the Mother of the Savior, Mary has a place that is in every way subordinate to and dependent upon that of her Son, who is the one mediator between God and humanity.
    Mary has no merit of her own, only the gift of divine grace through her Son. There are and have been various Marian cults diverse depending on time and culture, not to be confused with what is the official teaching of the Church concerning Mary.
     
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  4. metis

    metis aged ecumenical anthropologist

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    You said in a previous post that you have high respect for your children, and that's great, imo. But let's say that one of your kids comes home with someone that they intends to marry, and it turns out that (s)he is a Catholic. What's your reaction? Will you respect your son's/daughter's wishes or lecture them? Is it being respectful if you don't accept their choice? Will they respect you if you are not willing to accept the faith they may both end up in?

    This actually happened with my parents as I was brought up in an extremely anti-Catholic Protestant family and church, but I ended up marrying a very devout Catholic woman 52 years ago. Fortunately, my parents kept their bigotry to themselves at that point. But then something happened.

    As our kids got a bit older, there were Catholic ceremonies for them at different intervals, and my parents began to attend them. Guess what? They not only enjoyed them, but I overheard my father tell one of his neighbors at a neighborhood picnic that the reason he liked our church was because we "acted like Protestants". :rolleyes: I didn't say anything, then or afterward.

    Beware of bigotry, because usually if a person is prone to bigotry in one area they all too often are bigoted in other areas as well. And it will show, and it's possible down the road that your kids may not respect you if you stomp on what they feel is important. Plus such bigotry shows that one is prejudice and willing to slip into stereotyping others, and as the kids get older they may well pick up on that. IOW. respect is earned.

    Just some advice from an old man, and I don't even charge extra for it! :)
     
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  5. rstrats

    rstrats Active Member

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    sooda,
    re: " Do you revere your mother?"

    I'm kinda with JJ50 on this one. And as far as scripture is concerned neither did the Messiah. In fact 2 out of the 3 times He spoke to her, He seemed to be a bit perturbed with her. And the 3rd time He merely told her to look at her son.

    Also, He only spoke 2 times with regard to what someone said about her and again His response couldn't be considered very flattering.
     
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  6. susanblange

    susanblange Active Member

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    The parents of the true Messiah are responsible for the "crucifixion" and they are doomed. Psalm 109:14. "Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the Lord; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out". Psalm 69:28. "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous". Isaiah 50:1. "Thus saith the Lord, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? The father of the Messiah is identified as a "piercing serpent". Isaiah 27:1.
     
  7. rstrats

    rstrats Active Member

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    metis,
    re: "When Jesus was on the cross, Jesus said to the apostle John..."

    What scripture says it was John?



    re: "...'take thee thy mother'..."

    What Bible version are you using for that quote?
     
  8. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Herein, then, lies the problem. Definitions that are different for different people and one wonders why there is no understanding. Your "reverence", as is "honor" isn't the normal understanding.

    Honor your mother and father doesn't contain worship but all worship will contain honor.
     
  9. rstrats

    rstrats Active Member

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    metis,
    re: "She's mentioned 54 times..."

    I think it's interesting, though, that Mary is not mentioned by any of the writers in the New Testament Epistles including the one to the church at Rome as well as the two by Peter.
     
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  10. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    I wouldn't agree.

    Yes, there were times that he might have sounded perturbed but what was the end result? And did he not follow his mom's request for wine? And did he not give to John the care of his mom?

    Perturbed doesn't mean lack of honor or reverence.
     
  11. KenS

    KenS Veteran Member
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    Mentioned once in Acts. But does that detract from what she did? And her importance? The Epistles didn't mention Thomas either, that I know of. But he still was an Apostle.
     
  12. Watchmen

    Watchmen Well-Known Member
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    Sounds like this isn’t really about Mary, but that you have other issues. Namely, paedophile priests.
     
  13. David T

    David T Well-Known Member
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    I am a sucker for the la pieta incredible.
     
  14. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    As a practising Catholic I would contest that characterisation quite strongly. If you attend Sunday mass you will find there is relatively little mention of Mary.

    Catholics do not "worship" Mary, just as they do not worship other saints. They are venerated and people do pray to them, on the touching basis that they may "intercede" with God on their behalf. People sometimes pray to a saint because they are, sort of, too shy to ask God directly and they feel the saint may relate more to whatever their issue is. Mary has a special place among the saints because she is a mother figure. She thus provides an outlet for those feelings people have that call for maternal love and care, as opposed to the drier and more austere image of God as father.

    I know that if you go to a place reeking of old-style Catholic superstition, such as Lourdes, you will get a different impression, but after all, that is a shrine to Mary, so it is not so surprising. (I hate that sort of thing, by the way.)
     
  15. The Anointed

    The Anointed Well-Known Member

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    When Jesus was on the cross, Jesus said to the apostle John, "take thee thy mother", and that reference was to Mary the wife of Cleophas, who is one and the same person as Alphaeus the father of James the brother of Jesus and the younger of Mary's sons.
     
  16. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    I don't know this prayer. Do you mean "Hail Mary"?

    I think I'd like to see evidence for the claim that the Hail Mary is said more than these other prayers. Although bear in mind that almost the whole of the mass and other church services consist of prayers to members of the Trinity, so there is a nearly infinite number of these, whereas the prayers to Mary are just a well-worn handful of old favourites. It would thus not be hard, if one counts simply the frequency of repetition of individual prayers, for the ones to Mary to get close to the Lord's Prayer. But this obviously would not give a picture of how much prayer to Mary there is, compared to prayer to members of the Trinity.
     
  17. exchemist

    exchemist Well-Known Member

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    ...and the one-track record starts once more.........:rolleyes:
     
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  18. Darkforbid

    Darkforbid Well-Known Member

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    I agree!
    revere, reverence, respect, adulate, hallow, deify, idolize, exalt, honour, esteem, pay, praise, extol, aggrandize, lionize, hold in awe, stand in awe of, marvel at,value;
    informalput on a pedestal;
    raremagnify, laud
     
  19. PruePhillip

    PruePhillip Well-Known Member

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    Marian devotion must have started early.
    Luke 11:28
    As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice and said,
    “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and blessed are the breasts that nursed You.”
    But He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”

    So there is the warning - from Jesus' own mouth. "But He replied..." and
    "Blessed rather are those..."
    In other words, don't worship Mary.
    The burial site of Moses was hidden because God knew the Jews would
    make it a sacred site and worship there.
    And behold, Mary is now Queen of Heaven who intercedes for us. And they
    make little idols of her.

    ps Great Statue!!!!! I am awed by the artistry.
     
  20. Musing Bassist

    Musing Bassist Well-Known Member

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    Mary is more than a saint. She is the mother of God and Queen of Heaven. That Mary isn't talked about extensively in the Gospel narratives in no way detracts from our recognition of her role in our salvation. The truths of the faith are contained in both Scripture and Sacred Tradition.

    The role of the Apostles were as founding bishops of the Church. Such was not Mary's role ergo she was not ranked among the Apostles.

    Her role was to be the immaculate mother of the incarnate God, far surpassing the Apostles in dignity and grace.

    It's what Christ commands, not what you think that's important.

    The Apostles and all their successors were given the power to forgive sins. Matthew 18:18. If approaching the Church for sacramental absolution were not the intent of God this power would be utterly superfluous. Also, there's no requirement that a penance necessarily include Hail Marys. It involves whatever the confessor sees as fitting.

    I would wager that the actively homosexual and pederast priests aren't going to confession all that often. A valid confession requires contrition, and a sincere resolution to reform. No half way decent confessor would let someone guilty of sodomizing altar boys off with a Hail Mary, as he himself would be guilty of gross negligence and thus sin.

    The issue was never confession, but a catastrophic decline in standards that began around the 1940s reached an apex around the 1970s. Canon law, which required seminarians and clerics guilty of grave sexual sin (such as sodomy) be laiczed were ignored and in the name of 'mercy' large numbers of men clearly not fit for the priesthood were ordained anyway. The Church made the mistake of listening to the secular world, which insisted and still insists that sexual sin was no big deal. The hierarchy by in large ignored the wisdom of the Church and replaced it with the psychologising and enlightened 'wisdom' of the 1970s. Unfortunately, the mindset responsible for much of it is the mindset still prevailing among many of the clerics currently in power. It's a situation that may take a whole generation or two to fix.
     
    #40 Musing Bassist, Jun 29, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2019
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