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Featured The Mormons are being sued for doing the right thing:

Discussion in 'Religious News' started by Subduction Zone, Jan 11, 2020.

  1. Salvador

    Salvador RF's Swedenborgian

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    Please let's agree any Church should disclose its Church's Confidentiality policies and Clergy-Penitent bylaws in advance of taking a confessional statement from any of its parishioners.

    Maybe I'm wrong here, ethics was my weakest subject in Business School.

     
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  2. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Do you think that there would be more such crimes, or less, if confessing to a religious leader was equivalent to telling the police?
    Tom
     
  3. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Maybe the denominations that protect child predators should have to display a warning like those Health Department inspection certificates in restaurants.
     
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  4. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Less, probably.

    With child sexual abuse, it's often the confession of the victim that brings the abuse to the attention of the church: the child thinks that they've committed a sin by "participating" in their abuse.

    They don't recognize it as a crime by the adult, so the idea that reports of crime in confessional will be reported wouldn't stop them from confessing.

    OTOH, if a predator gets reported early on, there's the potential to stop them after only one or a few victims instead of after dozens, as has happened in some cases.
     
  5. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    I doubt that the LDS kept their policies secret.
    Must every religious professional start every conversation with "Admissions of certain crimes can and will be used against you in a court of Law"?

    Don't get me wrong, it's sticky thicket. Might the availability of moral leaders, who aren't part of the police department, result in less heinous crimes of this sort?

    I'm not sure, myself.
    But that is, to me, the bottom line. Prevention, not vengeance or punishment.
    Prevention.
    Tom
     
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  6. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Your opinions are much more confident than mine.
    Tom
     
  7. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    Yes, but when your confessed crime indicates that you may do the same thing again the moral response is to protect the victims out there.
     
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  8. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    I'll have to take your word for that, since I don't even know what your opinion on the matter is.
     
  9. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Does making priests, or whatever, an auxiliary of the police and judiciary seem likely to have that effect? Maybe people just stop talking to other people who want to prevent such crimes? Like religious authorities?

    I don't claim to know.
    Tom
     
  10. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    You seemed pretty confident. I am not.
    I'm not at all sure what the best thing to do is.
    Tom
     
  11. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Well, it seems unlikely that any response strategy would work worse than the strategy of keeping abuse secret, given the horrible record that this strategy has had in the denominations that have used it.


    When the choices are "be complicit with sexual abuse of children" and "do something about it," I simply can't understand your feelings on this.
     
  12. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Yes, they are. But by "we," I was thinking of "those among us" who had the integrity to hold this man accountable for what he did.
     
    #32 Katzpur, Jan 11, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  13. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    I'm LDS, and I'm sure glad I didn't have to confess something that I'd get turned in for! Utah is passing a law to protect such victims.
     
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  14. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    Those aren't often the choices. Sometimes, not very often.
    Possibly because you don't see the nuances here.

    Suppose:
    Chester(the Molester) goes to confession. He says "I'm banging a 14 y/o.".
    Father Joe says "You know you have to stop. God already knows. And your family and her family will find out. It's just a matter of time. You can't keep this secret.
    You just can't.

    There's help available. I can connect you with it. You need it. She needs it. You must do this! Today!
    Do what you and I both know is the right thing. Do it now."

    Or,
    Chester just walks past the church, because he knows Father Joe is a policeman.

    Which scenario do you think more likely to prevent further mayhem?
    Tom
     
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  15. columbus

    columbus yawn <ignore> yawn

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    And paying, because he thought he had rights the Mormon church doesn't provide?

    How about the other kids who's molester now knows better than to confess to a Mormon. How is the church going to help those kids?

    How is a multi million dollar payout to the wife of someone who molested their kid, but doesn't know Mormon policies help?
    Tom
     
  16. Subduction Zone

    Subduction Zone Veteran Member

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    I am not sure myself. I think some will know that they are doing wrong and will ask for forgiveness. Some won't no matter what. Perhaps the deal could be sweetened with a lesser sentence for those that asked for help. They are far less of a threat than those that have no.conscience.
     
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  17. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I'm thinking the guy must have been pretty darned clueless if he really thought there would be no repercussions for what he did. Any Mormon who understands his religion's basic theology knows, confession is part of what we often refer to as the "Repentance Process." Restitution is also a part of that process. This man did more than "sin" in the eyes of God. He committed a "crime" -- a felony -- and was crazy to think that simply admitting to that crime would let him off the hook where the law was concerned. The Church has a responsibility both to the offender and to the victim (as well as other potential victims). The Church can help him get right again with God, but it's not the Church's place to help him avoid punishment handed out by the legal system.

    I think 90% of those molesters already know. They're simply not going to confess. Obviously, if there is no confession, and nobody knows the crime is being committed, the Church can't possibly help. But it can help when the offender's conscience gets the best of him and he wants to repent.

    Well, I guess it would pay the bills if it actually came down to it. I'd be pretty surprised to hear that she won the case, though. So are you just playing devil's advocate, or do you actually think the man's bishop, etc. were wrong to turn him in? If he'd gotten off with a "shame on you, you've got to stop that," would you have felt the Church acted appropriately?

    On a side note: The person I feel most sorry for is the man's daughter. She was betrayed not just by one parent, but by both of them.
     
    #37 Katzpur, Jan 11, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
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  18. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Good point! I agree.
     
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  19. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    I'd say God's laws are not man's laws. God's laws let God decide how to punish you and you can repent. Man's laws let man decide and you can try to make restitution.
     
  20. Evangelicalhumanist

    Evangelicalhumanist "Truth" isn't a thing...
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    The most litigious society in the history of the world.

    Shakespeare had it right: "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers!" (Henry VI, Part 2)
     
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